Road Racing & Training Thread Week Ending 09/10/2017

Thanks dood :-)

Bird - FAST 5k. and another awesome week!

My plan for the next 3 weeks before my next race is to drastically lower intensity and up the miles.

Geez Bird, that is a quick 5K! Congrats and hope backing down for a bit allows the Achilles to sort itself out.

Question for y'all: As I have mentioned, I am training for my first marathon in late October and following an 18 week Hal Higdon plan that tops out at about 60 mpw. Thursday's alternate between tempo runs, hill repeats, and 800 m repeats. This week calls for 7 800 repeats. Luckily there is a track near where I am staying in Maputo. I had meant to do a 5K time trial a few weeks ago for the heck of it and to see where I am at, but got sick. Question is, what value do 800 meter repeats, a VO2 max workout, add to a beginner marathoner looking to break 320? Would doing another 6 mile tempo run at around 7 min pace like last week add more value? Or should I just do a long warm up, 5 k solo time trial, cool down? I did 17 flat in high school cross country, but I am curious to see if I could even break 20 min at this points. Thoughts?

BirdWatcher502 wrote:

I figured he'd be the one to watch. Anyway, went out hard from the gun and just gapped everyone. 4:41 first mile, 4:42 second mile, and 4:39 for mile 3. Felt very solid, was working, but not over reaching, which tells me I forgotten how to properally race a 5k. Being solo probably kept me from being able to shift into the next gear, but overall its a good sign of fitness. Ended up running 14:38, the course is flat as a pancake with only one 180 degree turn around half way.

Thanks for the well wishes on the 10K. I had a good set of Tempo cruise intervals this morning in under 5:50 pace so I think I'm there. Second, good luck with the Achilles. I can relate to the feeling of wanting to push the streak to see where it goes and winding up realizing the body needs a rest. I think there's a huge difference between 6 and 7 days a week and my guess is that it would take a conservative approach to be able to push your body into being able to do that (i.e., drop the intensity and increase the streak length a little at a time). Third, what happened to the guy who looked fast? Fourth, do you mean a "proper" 5K should feel like death in the last mile? your splits are amazing! :-) How does a "properly raced" 10K feel?

The fast looking guy got second in a respectable 15:08. As for a proper 5K, I remember reading somewhere that running a 5K at true 5k capacity leaves you at the two mile mark really questioning if you are gonna make it that last mile.The best one's I've run have felt this way. I felt like I was working Saturday, but ran at a pace that is basically where the majority of my speed training has been the past several weeks, so it felt controlled, but not out of reach. With someone pushing right next to me I imagine we would have gone faster and possibly pushed into that zone of "oh crap, am I going to make it?"I don't know how much faster that would have been as I haven't been training with anyone recently. Hopefully over the next few weeks I'll get in some workouts with my training partners back home and find that next gear...just in time to leave it on the shelf and let it collect dust as I'm getting ready for a marathon, lol.

I totally agree regarding the last mile of the 5k seeming interminably long and impossible to complete at 5k pace when you get there.

I recently posted on another thread that the only way to get through the last mile of the 5k is to break it up into 8 x 200 at 5k pace with zero rest, and to focus on the small bites. Getting to the next turn, then the next traffic light, then to a group of spectators, etc.

I also came across a study recently that indicated that the shift in relative perceived effort seems to occur at roughly the same percentage point of completion across races. That is, 2/3rds of the way through any given race. I would say that is roughly right for me, except for the marathon.

I haven't felt like that in a 5K in a long time. I got a good "omg, can I just walk now?" feeling last weekend (8-miler) and then pushed through it, but didn't get to the point where I didn't think I could make it (more like internal bargaining about how hard I was going to push it to the end). Sunday I'd like to push myself to that dark place and then keep pushing. I know there will be some much faster guys on the course ahead of me, so maybe I can run out of my mind and chase some down on the backstretch. Obsessing over the numbers a bit more it makes sense to revise my goal towards 37:00 given the 400' of vertical gain through the course. It's easy enough to say I can run 6:30s going up 125'/mile and then clock 5:30s dropping 65'/mile but honestly I have no idea. I've just got to run lights out and see what happens. I haven't really done that in a workout or in a race before so I'll have to go way out of my comfort zone.

Bit late to thread but good stuff everyone!

Good to see so few injury niggles, people back running and racing. I guess it's crunch time for a lot of marathon runners, getting in those last tune ups and focused long runs.

M - 8 easy

T - 3 x 4m off 90s then 4 x 60s off 60s grass session

W - Off

Th - Hilly off road 3m race, beat some guys who were 90s+ quicker than me on Sunday at the 10000m meeting, satisfying.

F - 10 easy

S - 8.5 steady

Su - 20 steady with 5k at marathon effort. Incredibly windy in London, chose the wrong time for this but felt strong.

Total - 60

Feel like I've run way less miles than everyone else for this marathon (although getting over a fractured leg has something to do with that). Got a half on Sunday with a big hill right at the start and right at the end, so sub-77 would give me a bit of confidence back.

I honestly haven't felt that way in a race since switching my focus to the marathon. Marathon running is just so different that for me I never have that moment in most races now. My guess is that the focus shifted to tempos, threshold, long continuous hard runs and away from the vo2max and other more intense work of 5k/10k training. This is turns leaves me at the point where I run decent 5k/10k times, but am not anywhere near running my PR at these distances and finishing them usually with the feel of "well I think I could have gone harder" but not really ever finding that next gear to take me there.

I just race last crap. The one last Saturday I left a lot of time on the road imo. I went out at 5:30 pace and then got a gap and got scared about flaming out and getting passed. Shoulda just went for it.

Working Harder wrote:

Nothing to really report here. I was feeling pretty worked over at the start of the week and then ended up getting a stomach bug Monday and Tuesday so took them off completely. Ran a pretty uneventful ~50ish miles with ~2500k vert last week. Full taper mode now and planning for around 30 miles this week and not much of anything the following week. Right achilles has flared up which is new but it's steadily gotten better with the reduced mileage. Hopefully nothing major pops up in the next week and a half.

Hope it heals up before your race. Lot of time for nagging injuries to become severe during a 100miler :)

Martalus wrote:

Question is, what value do 800 meter repeats, a VO2 max workout, add to a beginner marathoner looking to break 320? Would doing another 6 mile tempo run at around 7 min pace like last week add more value?

Smoove can likely answer your questions, but I would consider the 800 repeats and the 5000 time trial as interchangeable workouts.

Regarding the value of VO2max workouts for a 3:15 marathoner, it's interesting that Daniels includes those early in the training cycle, while Pfitzinger adds them late. Sounds like the Higdon plan alternates them with LT work throughout? Personally, I prefer that last approach.

Maybe it's just a psychological benefit, but I like to have marathon pace feel very easy ... for at least the first 20 miles, anyway.

team 1 - I think that either of those are good for speed maintenance. You could probably get away with running the shorter strides a bit faster. I wouldn't go longer than 40 seconds though, as I've read that any longer than that and you start to produce lactate. So unless you're trying to work your anaerobic tolerance, I would keep it to

I agree with everything Alan said, except I've gotten so use to the Daniels "run them early approach" that I couldn't imagine doing them any other time.

vo2max isn't really a limiting favor in marathon performance. So you are doing these more for purposes of improving overall fitness or for trying to make race pace feel more manageable/bringing about a peak.

Daniels goes early because his focus is on improving your overall fitness early on sonthat the heavy tempo portion of the cycle is more manageable. He includes them throughout for his elite training plan ( which always seemed incomprehensibly difficult to me). But that is more for folks who are actually talking to truly tace during the marathon (surging responding to surges), not people who are looking to simply maximize their time.

The "do them at the end" approach is intended to make marathon pace feel manageable and to bring about a bit of a peek by emphasizing a faster than race day pace. Not a terrible approach either, however you do lose out on the early cycle fitness games by doing up so late. It also adds a lot more physical stress toward the end of a long dream sickle then I would prefer.

I did a nice easy 8min pace 12miler this morning before work and it felt fantastic!! I forgot what I was missing.

Laughlin wrote:

Also: GymTanLaundry - what are your training/racing goals? You seem rather mysterious :-)

About 3 months into a comeback attempt. Basically, trying to get in some consistent weekly mileage (35 - 45) without injury at this point.

Responding to some comments:

@hantph

Thank you and welcome back! How’s the calf? I’m dealing with supreme tightness in both of mine right now so I’m curious what aside from rest you felt helped you get back out there. I also wish I had access to a pool to swim, as I’d do that every night if I could. Maybe, hopefully, one day.

@Runn3rGirl

Long tempos are my bread and butter. I ran it depleted which was interesting but didn’t feel like I was redlining until around 11/22 of the tempo and long run, respectively. Very encouraging to hear your body is feeling so good! Hope it continues into this week.

@workingharder

On six days, no less. Had to take this Monday off, too. Was unexpected but too beat up from the big long run. I think I earned it, though. Stay healthy and keep resting. Taper time means it's time to cash in the chips.

@Team 1

Thank you! Wish I could have gotten in seven days last week (and this week), but I feel I’m making up for it in my other six days and especially on my quality days.

No set training plan. My alma mater’s coach advised me on the side through college as I started the sport at 19, and he still checks in from time to time. So, I’m mostly basing my training around my personal experience and strengths and weaknesses.

Main philosophy is simple: hard days hard, easy days very easy, and add quality in long runs, in order to strike the right balance of volume and rest, quality and recovery. I’ve maintained the same mileage and types of workouts for ~2 years and, while I’ve PR’d at every distance aside from the marathon in that time, I want that marathon PR bad for this cycle. So, I’m taking my easy days easier than ever before which is enabling me to handle more difficult workouts and long runs. Because I’ve chased sub 240 for 6.5 years to no avail, I think this will get me in the right direction. We’ll see.

Strong workout after your race and I like your potpourri of races this fall. Lots of chances to PR and best of luck this weekend!

@Birdwatcher

Appreciate it. Thank you. Would’ve felt better if I didn’t have a donut for Monday.

How’s the Achilles holding up? Best of luck with the race and well done this weekend. Kind of an interesting distance for this weekend. Bring that ‘chip back home.

Chunky- Achilles seems to be on the mend. Ran an easy 30 minutes in the am and then again in the pm yesterday. It felt fine on both those runs. Jumped into a workout today, run in some pretty cushioned flats, and it held up well with 13k worth of work sub 5min pace, so I think its ok. Going to keep it pretty chill the rest of the week until the race. You're right, the race is a strange distance, but its a fun course and usually at least one other solid runner shows up and makes it entertaining. Seems kinda old school, just running hard for the hell of it and enjoying a cold beer afterwards. Doesn't pay the bills, but I've run some of my best times at races with no money, and some of my worse at the ones with the most money, so in the end I don't make much anyway, might as well enjoy the ones that I run well at.

Smoove - in another thread, you discuss how a fit runner can "cheat" with certain reps, shorter/medium ones (I believe) such as 400s and 800s. I do not remember if you were discussing LT pace or VO2max pace, but it was one or the other, or perhaps both. In any case, it was a Daniels-oriented thread, and you responded in your usual astute manner. I found what you said very interesting, but if you can explain it further for me, I would appreciate it.

All the best...