Is my coach an idiot?

Sounds like your coach is prepping you for some hard running without killing you early in the season. This sort of schedule may be a problem if it is continued into October, but right now it's not a big deal IMO. Good way to get the team introduced to harder running without much injury risk.

Trust the process, trust your coach. As you stated, he does have much more experience than you have.

Your coach is not an idiot in the slightest. It's the time in the season to switch from base mileage into real workouts. I'm a fan of Lee LaBadie's (Clayton Murphy's coach as well as a few other past Olympians) 5 pace training model. It's all about variation and time spent at different race paces. For example the workout you did on Wednesday of the second week I would have run the minute hard at mile effort, the 2 minutes hard at 2 mile effort and the 3 minutes hard at 5k effort.

Long slow distance might at first give you a leg up on your competitors, but ultimately in the end you'll never have true 5k fitness. For example, look at the success of Seth Hirsh in his senior season. He said in an interview he dropped down from 100+ miles a week to 65-70 and his 5k time dropped significantly. Moreover, he ran huge PRs on the track during the outdoor season. Making huge improvements in the 1600 and 3200.

Your coach has your best interests at heart Trust your coach and don't let this get to your head during races.

I'm kind of in the same boat as the OP. The OP's coach does not seem to be an idiot but the schedule seems a little wonky. Seems like too many workouts on consecutive days and too many workouts in general. If it works then it works, but that looks like the kind of schedule that could lead to burnout in the beginning of the season (especially for those who barely ran in the summer).

I don't agree with Gallon Rupp though. Long, slow distance would give you a leg up on your competitors at the end of the season. A huge base, like the OP has, will let runners be better prepared to handle intense workouts and gain more benefit through an enhanced speed of recovery. Therefore, a runner who does long, slow distance and increases mileage over the summer will have a higher peak and be able to hold it longer. Meanwhile, the low mileage guys will have an advantage early in the season but will have a higher chance of peaking early and burning out.

I guess the best option is to listen to your coach. With that kind of base, you should be able to handle a lot. Just remember to take it easy on your easy days, and don't be too worried if you aren't feeling 100% yet. Save your best running for when it counts! Good luck!

Ya, you're right. You know more than your coach. I mean running fartlek once a week during the summer is horrible. Stick with crushing those intervals and enjoy that peak in Early October!

mrtalent wrote:

I'm kind of in the same boat as the OP. The OP's coach does not seem to be an idiot but the schedule seems a little wonky. Seems like too many workouts on consecutive days and too many workouts in general. If it works then it works, but that looks like the kind of schedule that could lead to burnout in the beginning of the season (especially for those who barely ran in the summer).

Many well-respected coaches (ex: Daniels) incorporate back-to-back quality days with adequate rest before and after. As long as the coach is mixing it up and not killing kids each workout, it can be a great way to run a XC program. Maybe even a preferable schedule when late season and championship meets come.

Not to beat a dead horse,but the other posters are right. This sounds perfectly reasonable and it sounds like you're set up for a good season. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Good luck.

Might be wrote:

This summer I decided I didn't want to be an average 16:45 5k guy anymore so I got up to 60-70 mpw with 4-5 double days a week and good threshold running.

Mon- Long Run, the last few miles effortful

Tues- Tempo Run

Wed- 60s hard, 60s rest for 3 miles

Thurs- Easy

Fri- Tempo Reps

Sat- Easy

This week went...

Mon- Long Run, last few miles effortful

Tues- Easy

Wed- 4 sets of 1 min on, 1 min jog, 2 min on, 2 min jog, 3 min on, 3 min jog

Thurs- 60s hard, 60s rest for 3 miles

Fri- Easy

Sat- Race (in which I ran and felt worse than a few weeks ago when I raced off of just mileage)

I've been able to keep a few doubles 3-4 days a week and 50-55 mpw yet, I'm not feeling like the same guy as a month ago.

60/60 sec workouts are a good way as a transition to more demanding aerobic power workouts, or as a maintenance in the base (a fartlek type workout). But if you´ve done the same kind of schedule for 6 weeks, while already racing, I don´t believe that you´ll get much benefits from it. If you have a week that you don´t race the 60/60 workout (hard parts around 3-10k pace) could have it´s place as a maintenance, but racing weekly or every other week will keep the aerobic power strong, other training should be geared to keep the base and the lactate threshold as high as possible.

Your first week seems reasonable, although I don´t know how intense the 60/60 workouts or tempo run or tempo intervals are, so hard to say, but I think that in the workouts you´re always going above the threshold? The second week seems more questionable, you have a long run with a pick up of pace in the end, 4 sets of 1-3minute reps (total of 24min), then in the following day you do the 60/60 workout again. And then you have a race 2 days later. That´s just too much of intensity around the VO2max, with too little easy runs plus zero moderate runs to keep the basic endurance and the lactate threshold strong.

It´s inevitable that with this kind of change in your training has had an effect on your aerobic endurance. The muscle tissue, especially the intermediate muscle fibers transforms quickly towards type of training that has been done, and demands frequent training at adequate intensity to stay at "aerobic mode". Your recent training has had an opposite effect, I afraid. This is increasingly important for guys like me, with a stronger natural anaerobic capacity vs. aer. cap. I needed the moderate sub-LT/LT runs and enough of easy mileage throughout the season to maintain the aerobic endurance, even when was racing primarily at 800m. Also the "slow twitchers" doesn´t tolerate much of intensity and race well with normal base training. Natural talents with strong capacities (like Seb Coe) recovers quickly and tolerates more intensity without so much of an effect on aerobic endurance, racing well at multiple distances. Which kind of type you think you are? PB´s at other distances?

Doesn`t matter if this is a "troll thread" or not. The same principle is that never do consecutive hard days! It takes 48-72 hours to recover proper from a hard day,sometimes even more.

COACH J.S

I got hurt in track and only managed a 10:14 3200m and a 4:45 1600m. The tempo run and reps were done at a manageable pace, nothing extraordinary. The 60-60 workout is usually just "as fast as you can." Which usually means the bursts are mile pace or a little faster. I'm more of a slow-twitch guy (for reference, my fastest 200m I've ever done is a 28). I tend to run better off of the longer workouts than the short, fast ones.

Side note: I started keeping track of my resting heart rate every morning a few months ago. Going into that first week where I was running on my own, it was typically 40-43 bpm. This past week and a half it has been 45-48 bpm. I don't know much about heart rate, but doesn't this mean I'm not in as good shape as before? Again, I don't know much about this stuff and I may be completely wrong.

Schedule looks pretty good. Just remember that you weren't tapered for that race. But it's a terrible idea to taper for every mid-season race.

60-60's for three miles should be a medium workout for someone running 60+/week. Think of it as recovery with some speed-work. The overall effort should be similar to going 1.5 fast at the end of a run.

Might be wrote:

I got hurt in track and only managed a 10:14 3200m and a 4:45 1600m. The tempo run and reps were done at a manageable pace, nothing extraordinary. The 60-60 workout is usually just "as fast as you can." Which usually means the bursts are mile pace or a little faster. I'm more of a slow-twitch guy (for reference, my fastest 200m I've ever done is a 28). I tend to run better off of the longer workouts than the short, fast ones.

There you go, you would be better prepared just like you did in the summer. Lower mileage and lots of intensity isn´t for you

He's coached for 10 years and read all the running books while you are a 16 year old boy who thinks he knows everything.

There is an idiot in your story......you.

Speed Doctor wrote:

He's coached for 10 years and read all the running books while you are a 16 year old boy who thinks he knows everything.

No need to be so rude.

Reading all the books cannot beat personal experience, making mistakes and learning from it, AND maybe at the same time reading practically all the books of the subject. It seems to me that this coach has never really trained himself, or even if he has some years of personal experience, then he didn´t learn much of it.

It seems that the OP has the ability to listen to his body. Often you can feel it if something works or doesn´t work, and the clock only confirms it.

Not to say I'm not being a bit rash by questioning my coach, but I just want a good reason why he has us doing what he has us doing. Honestly he hasn't explained it too well, which I feel is an important thing to do. And yes, I do realize I am being a bit of a know-it-all high school boy. My coach runs, he was never a top competitor in high school or college or anything like that, but he gets it. How can I communicate better with him? He listens and doesn't always stick to rigid, unchanging workouts. Or at least, that's what I thought...

Might be wrote:

Not to say I'm not being a bit rash by questioning my coach, but I just want a good reason why he has us doing what he has us doing. Honestly he hasn't explained it too well, which I feel is an important thing to do. And yes, I do realize I am being a bit of a know-it-all high school boy. My coach runs, he was never a top competitor in high school or college or anything like that, but he gets it. How can I communicate better with him? He listens and doesn't always stick to rigid, unchanging workouts. Or at least, that's what I thought...

Unchanging workouts are the worst. I get your dilemma and am going through the same stuff this season. He should at least be able to tell you why he is having you do those workouts.

Seems to me that coaches can have all the experience in the world but if they aren't intelligent enough to actually utilize that knowledge, then they still won't be a great coach.

No, based on the last two weeks, your coach is an idiot. That is stupid and you will not make it to November.

slow twichers do not need this much hard speed training

the high heart rate in the am shows you are not recovering

bring the Heart rate thing up to him...maybe this will get through.

also try to find some post on here (by searching) about slow twitch vs fast twitch runners...they can not be trained the same.

you are in a tough spot - all I can say is keep trying...keep communicating with your coach - because unless he changes you are only going to get more and more over trained (though speed) you thrive on strength work - long runs and tempo mostly (with just a few...1 intervals type day a week - preferable longer).

Steve Magness has some really good stuff on what happen to us from a science POV (see if you can find it) I found this great blog of his from years ago where he breaks this down...if might be in his book the science of running - but I haven'y got to read it yet.

if it helps, ask your coach if he ever visits this site. maybe he will see these posts and realize one-size-does not fit all. I have seen too many good runners like yourself go through this. I just saw a girl go from 4th best in state cc to way back because the coach wouldn't listen.

How can I get my coach to change things or at least understand what I'm saying? After most runs he typically individually asks us how we are feeling, that seems to be a good time to bring it up...? I don't see these weekly 60-60 workouts going away anytime soon.