You mad, bro?
You mad, bro?
Sorry as a sports journalist and track fan the article is terrible.
You didn't talk to any WCAP athlete
You didn't mention the WCAP includes lots of sports other than running.
You didn't mention that at least one athlete got london because other pros didn't want to race
Then you include the stupid statement that what the WCAP is counter to the narrative. That whole section didn't make sense in the article. Plus you should never "reuse" - quote if you don't have to.
Furthermore 2 of the runners don't fit your narrative
It's clear you had a motive behind the story. There was a much better story you missed.
ok7272 wrote:
Hey y’all, it’s the guy who wrote the article again chiming in on all your comments.
My approach to online comments as a writer is like how George Gerswhin locked the doors after his concerts and kept his audiences in because he didn’t care if he loved or hated it but he had to hear your reaction. A lot of times when I’m writing, I don’t get much reaction, so I’m just excited to write something that got a reaction.
My response to this is a mix of 90% sheer excitement and gratitude for your agreements and disagreements, about 8% looking at some of your comments with amusement bc you weren’t in my shoes when I was trying to write the article, and 2% annoyance at those guys who chimes in about a single mistake or two. Try writing 2500 words and see if you don’t come up with a mistake or two, jerk.
Also, I'm the guy who sits at the end of the sports bar and bothers the bartender to put on track and field when no one else in the bar cares, and when I talk to fellow bar tenders about how big of a deal Obiri beating Amaya was in the 5K, it's hard to get them excited, so it's kind of cool to be schooled by people who know more than me. If you have complaints about my lack of knowledge in the sport, don't think of me as the foremost expert on it. All I know is that I somehow convinced those guys to pay me to write an article about it and I did the best that I could with it. I don't even know if I'll ever write another track article again. It's not a particularly popular sport and I don't know if ESPN has a window outside of the world championships when a sport is relevant enough to bring in a freelancer.
On the question of using other people's quotes, that kind of goes in the 8% of my total reaction of people who don't understand the constraints I'm under: There are deadlines, there are interview requests that are declined, I almost didn't want to bother Andy Bayer and Ben True because I didn't want to bother them after they might have been devastated having lost a slot to their championships (Bayer was a good sport); there's also the fact that I'm a freelancer I'm not going to book a flight to London and ESPN wouldn't pay my way on a track story and unless you go to London, USATF isn't going to take time out of their busiest time of the year to accommodate a single reporter, there are people I interviewed (Stephen Haas, Coach Wetmore of Colorado) who were cut out of the final article
On the question of not interviewing the athletes: I wasn't given access. To be entirely honest (and I'm going to take some heat for that, so I don't know why I'm admitting it out loud and opening it up for criticism), I'm not a big fan of athlete interviews (I'm not really a sports reporter, I'm mostly local, human interest and TV/film) they're very rote and athletes generally follow scripts more than any other interview subjects. It would have been even worse with army athletes because the military is very, very protective of their soldiers' speech.
Lickety Split, I actually think you're right, I wish I asked those questions, but the military is very restrictive. They initially didn't even want to talk to me at all and had extremely little patience for any journalism towards their program, it took a lot of persistence and convincing that it was in their interest to get their side of the story to get anywhere at all and even then their answers weren't particularly clear and barely had the resources to get me follow-up to my questions. Also, when I asked my questions to the coaches, there was a PR person on the line policing me.
Also, I'm not ashamed to say that hey I didn't know what questions to ask. I kind of wish I knew you and somehow got that advice before I wrote that article. I tried to learn as much as I could in the time I had and I tried quite a few methods of absorbing that information and consulting with people who knew.
First of all kid. If you want to play journalist one mistake in 2500 is not allowed. You can't simply excuse it by say it was a long piece, writing is hard.
Second no one expected you to fly to London to get quotes. You could have tried other means, email, text or you know. The phone.
Using other quotes is lazy. Don't excuse it
If you couldn't get the runners to talk. Put that in the article. I personally think you didn't even try but I have no way of knowing and neither will the reader.
Lickety Split wrote:
- I salute you and ESPN for getting after this topic; however, in my mind this article lacked "balance" and should have been a series given the topics complexity. That said, understand that Lickety is the self-proclaimed WCAP Track & Field team's a"High Value Individulal (HVI) Target #1" on the BroJos message boards as the Army might say. I take pride in being a part of WCAP's 'deck of cards' sans the battelfield clean-up following the Iraq invasion. I've stated this a number of times: "WCAP is much more of a threat to the fragile US middle/long-distance post-collegiate runners than doping ever was or is!"
- You failed to challenge why the US Army insists on investing so much US government taxpayer and MWR funds to maintain this WCAP track & field stable when they publicly exclaim that they are in danger of being "broken" as an institution in the midst of their global requirements. An Army LTC's full-time job is coaching track? Probably one of the highest paid track & field coaches in the nation .... why are American taxpayers funding this job?
- You failed to describe the WCAPers "flash-to-bang" from NCAA-boot camp-to-Citizenship-WCAP without serving in the Army's operating forces & on American taxpayer/college-student dime.
- You did not challenge the Army on their recruiting of NCAA blue-chippers in time for OTs or WCs. Furthermore, you did not address WCAPs UNREALISTIC standards that prevent above-average/talented soldiers serving in the operating forces from developing into national or world class athletes. As I've noted before, only 1 x West Point school record-holder could qualify for this program. I'll grant their are a few exceptions: Kibet, Maiyo. I would define as above average collegiate runners that figured out how to work their way into WCAP, but they are significant exceptions. In other words, WCAP isn't designed for "real" soldiers ... you have to be National/World Class before you enlist.
- You failed to address the additional income that WCAPers receive from sponsors and prize money ... an opportunity not afforded to other Soldiers. Furthermore, you did not cover the taxpayer bill for the WCAPers to participate in Diamond League & other events.
- You failed to challenge why WCAP used taxpayer money to move Soldiers to Portland so LTC Dan "the Scam" Browne could train them from his home versus an Army base which would reduce operating costs.
- You failed to address whether their enlistment commitment is extended based upon their time in WCAP versus the "real" Army.
- You failed to acknowledge the potential impact of the Secretary of Defense's pending policy decision on this fast-track immigration LOOPHOLE!
- You failed to address why WCAP contributes to making a "better Army."
- The "Win" is achieving ESPN interest & space: well done!
- Understand the limiting factors associated with your feature. That said, does it still have legs w/your Editor? You are covering what folks may call a "inconvenient truth" -- the hijack of the United States' national/world-class long-distance running teams by a immigration loophole. Yawn? maybe ... wait until 2020 when you just have Evan & Galen ... the rest WCAP from Steeple-Marathon.
- The Army: yeah, I can see you getting bulldogged on their turf. It's interesting that this Willie Wilson is focused on "protecting" his athletes (ahem! soldiers) versus leveraging the publicity .... for me, it's telling that we don't see Chelimo & his gold necklace in a WCAP uniform on any "Army Strong!" advertisement. Consider this a win though .... you got the US Army "on the defense!"
- Athlete Interviews: agree w/their interviews being of little value, particularly in this sport w/its fragile base on this "hot button" topic ... if Bayer or True made a comment on immigration then they risk being released from their contract.
- Finally ... do you really say "Hey y'all" in real life?
"I wish I asked those questions, but the military is very restrictive. They initially didn't even want to talk to me at all and had extremely little patience for any journalism towards their program, it took a lot of persistence and convincing that it was in their interest to get their side of the story to get anywhere at all and even then their answers weren't particularly clear and barely had the resources to get me follow-up to my questions. Also, when I asked my questions to the coaches, there was a PR person on the line policing me."
This above statement is your impetus for the real story. We don't need an increasingly partial understanding of the WCAP's public facade. Do some investigative work and get down to the bottom of what is going on there with athlete selection, coaching and the Army's purpose for the program.
You are to be commended for your initiative, but your journalistic efforts do need some work.
Guys, I've been on vacation but have really wanted to respond as soon as I could get that wifi.
Ghfhjhgnjjmhh, you're kind of getting on my nerves. I am perfectly fine reading an article with one mistake for a word out of 2500, and am perfectly fine writing one. Nor, with the declining financial payoffs in this current state of journalism, would I ever rip on a fellow writer for not trying hard enough because I understand he's required to do more with less budget. If you wanted to write a better article for ESPN, you were certainly welcome to, but my pitch was the one that got accepted, so go write that article elsewhere. You are fair in your points that I did feel like there were doubts that the athletes themselves would have much to say in this case. I doubt Hillary Bor or Leonard Korir would say "Yeah, I'm draining too much tax payer money" or "Our program is dumb." But I also firmly believe that you wouldn't have gotten to them anyway. I had to fight tooth and nail to get as much access as I did and that's typically in my response of "commenters who didn't properly put themselves in my shoes."
Lickety, you and blue ribbon are fine. Let me answer your questions
To me, I don't know everything but I tried to think of what made the story interesting to me as a starting point and try to stick with that when trying to make the story readable. To me, I thought it was interesting that much of our narrative was about beating Kenyans. There were points where I also said "hmmm, maybe this isn't a story" but I think I like the product. I agree that I wish I dug deeper with more pointed questions but it took a lot of effort to get knowledgable with the subject enough that I could hold my own against these people. I would have been extremely open to hearing your suggestions before I wrote the article though and I even posted something in the forums asking if any experts wanted to go on the record.
I will say that I didn't give an inch to the military PR speakers and I took up the resources of three members of that branch's PR department. The first person basically said "no, not at this time." The second person took over after I put pressure on, than at a certain point he said "I have too many irons in the fire, this is it for me" then a 3rd person handled the clarification questions. I made it clear that I don't think they answered the key question of whether any of them did actual tours of duty.
Let me hive you some advice, kid.
No mistakes are acceptable. You saying you don't mind reading mistakes in an article says it all. You have low standards for yourself.
This is also evident in not getting quotes of you own. You don't know whether you would get athlete comments unless you tried. You are lazy and your writing reflects that.
Furthermore, It reads like a high school report. No firsthand work went into this article. Too much opinion and not enough facts even to back that opinion.
Sorry, I give you a D.
 I doubt Hillary Bor or Leonard Korir would say "Yeah, I'm draining too much tax payer money" or "Our program is dumb."Â
Really did you even try?
BY THE way you quote "draining too much tax payer money"
Do you know Hillary Bor brother just came back from deployment? I did not see you write that his brother was draining too much tax payer money!! Alot of Kenyans have been deployed and no one have said "draining too much tax payer money for deployment"
For you it's okay to fight for you freedom but not okay to represent your country??
- I totally agree that Sgt Bor & Spc Korir would not say things as you have stated. Instead, they would giggle about the legal and anti-American scam they've pulled off.
- Nobody cares about Sgt Bor's brother .... he's not on WCAP.
- The majority of WCAPers have never been deployed ... do your homework. The most aren't "fighting" for anything accept for knuckleheads like Chelimo looking to reap thousands on the Army's dole ... I loved what happened in Zurich.
Lickety Split wrote:
- Love it ... ignore Lickety, but reinforce the constructive criticism previously posted.
- "non-running duties" ... another sucker!
Strong reason to believe one of those WCAP guys porked your wife and she loved every minute of it. Stay salty my friend.
Lickety Split wrote:
- I totally agree that Sgt Bor & Spc Korir would not say things as you have stated. Instead, they would giggle about the legal and anti-American scam they've pulled off.
- Nobody cares about Sgt Bor's brother .... he's not on WCAP.
- The majority of WCAPers have never been deployed ... do your homework. The most aren't "fighting" for anything accept for knuckleheads like Chelimo looking to reap thousands on the Army's dole ... I loved what happened in Zurich.
Ummm.... not smart guy, both of Sgt Hillary Bor's brothers deployed and both are in WCAP now after serving in a war zone.
Try educating yourself before saying something.
(And yes, lots of dudes porked Likety's wife)
Are you whining about being critqued? Maybe journalism isn't for you. It's clear you want to only chase "big" stories and not do the dirty work of journalism.
You work in a daily paper and any editor will be much harsher (and you will have a real deadline)
Try having 2 hrs to pull together a complete story about a condo fire and then get back to me about being a real journalist.
Your editor isn't going to accept "I didn't even try" or "they wouldn't talk". You have to be persistent as heck.
Also you never explained how you tried to reach out to the athletes in the article. Which was my point.
You tell the WCAP pr that you will include in your article that they refused access to the athletes. That IS part of the story.
Nice job, Orrin!
Great debut article for ESPN.
Don't let the bozos on this site get you down. You did ask for help and did your research. I think it's a great article.
I'm a freelancer. If I was on staff, it would be apples and oranges. I would, of course, first of all be free to spend all day or week on an article because my paycheck would cover it. I would also likely be reassigned to another story eventually and an editor would probably look at my story budget and allocate me on whatever stories best fit my resources. As a freelancer, I have to allocate my time best. My sense is that you weren't respecting that I don't have endless time to chase down a story.
You do make an excellent point that telling the wcap or people "I will say they declined comment" might have given me more leverage. As I said elsewhere I fought pretty hard to get as much clearance as I did and did indicate that I had sources who doubted the legitimacy of their army training. But honestly that's a good tip. For some reason Mark Whetmore's quotes were cut.
It's certainly not unheard of to aggregate other web sites for some of your sourcework. I think I had a good balance and certainly added first hand research.
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I’m a D2 female runner. Our coach explicitly told us not to visit LetsRun forums.