"Make your easier runs easier"

Three to four sessions a week is a lot of hard running. You might do better with two or maybe three some of the time. But that wasn't your question. Personally, I think that you can overdo the "run really easy on easy days" thing. Peter Snell told me that the measure of whether you're running too hard or not is whether you can do that pace pretty much daily or not. If you need very short and slow days or days off regularly you're running too hard, he said. Eight minute pace was once considered pretty slow. If you were managing it well, i.e., as Peter described to me, I don't see why you'd need to go slower. I'd suggest not doing your distance work as slowly as you've done recently but not doing more than two "workouts" a week.

PS

It also just occurred to me that if you've been doing 3-4 workouts a week for a while you may have overcooked yourself and really need a stretch of nothing but easy running. In that case you might need to go as slowly on the distance runs as you've been doing temporarily.

Way too much quality, bro.

Dropping volume while adding speedwork was a mistake

Hopefully you are a 3/10 troll and not an idiot.

3 to 4 sessions a week is too much.

At most, you should do 2 sessions, one lr, and one tempo per week, with the rest easy runs.

Trackfanny wrote:

3 to 4 sessions a week is too much.

At most, you should do 2 sessions, one lr, and one tempo per week, with the rest easy runs.

No intervals? Hobby jogger spotted.

All He Does Is Win wrote:

Trackfanny wrote:

3 to 4 sessions a week is too much.

At most, you should do 2 sessions, one lr, and one tempo per week, with the rest easy runs.

No intervals? Hobby jogger spotted.

I will be the first to admit that because of my times and my experiemce level, I am indeed a hobbyjogger but on the other hand ai constantly strive to get fast, I do strides and track sessions.

And to the guy who gave me a troll rating, I guess I am just an idiot then. I'm clearly not as experienced as other runners on this board. I wasn't trained from a young age and I have been quite out of shape my whole life until age 25 and the hardest part of running for me right now is struggling to get my training right and get results for me work. I'm having a very tough time getting conditioned and maintaining (let alone building) top end aerobic fitness.

All He Does Is Win wrote:

Trackfanny wrote:

3 to 4 sessions a week is too much.

At most, you should do 2 sessions, one lr, and one tempo per week, with the rest easy runs.

No intervals? Hobby jogger spotted.

Presumably one of the 2 sessions is intervals, no? So something like intervals, easy, speed, lr, easy, tempo, easy.

Diabetus for breakfast wrote:

All He Does Is Win wrote:

No intervals? Hobby jogger spotted.

I will be the first to admit that because of my times and my experiemce level, I am indeed a hobbyjogger but on the other hand ai constantly strive to get fast, I do strides and track sessions.

And to the guy who gave me a troll rating, I guess I am just an idiot then. I'm clearly not as experienced as other runners on this board. I wasn't trained from a young age and I have been quite out of shape my whole life until age 25 and the hardest part of running for me right now is struggling to get my training right and get results for me work. I'm having a very tough time getting conditioned and maintaining (let alone building) top end aerobic fitness.

Don't listen to the haters.

Take the other advice.

I definitely agree there is a such thing as too slow on easy days. "Junk miles." If you're struggling as much to force yourself to slow down as you are to push on harder days then that slow pace is too slow.

e7cg8w wrote:

All He Does Is Win wrote:

No intervals? Hobby jogger spotted.

Presumably one of the 2 sessions is intervals, no? So something like intervals, easy, speed, lr, easy, tempo, easy.

I assumed when OP said "sessions" he meant intervals. I meant the same thing.

2 (interval) sessions per week, one long run, one tempo, with everything else being easy runs. OP is doing 3-4 interval sessions per week, which is crazy.

What is your weekly mileage when base-building vs when you drop your volume for more quality work?

Weekly milage during base: 40. Weekly milage when dropping: 20-25.

Yes, it's still low milage but it's the highest I've ever done.

Previously you did a lot of sub-tempo runs (LT runs) with the tempo runs, which are very important especially for a ~20min 5k runner. Now only easy runs during base?

"Lots of base building and easy milage at first, then dropped the volume and added about 3-4 sessions a week of quality/speedwork depending on what phase you are in training. I also train by jack daniels paces during speedwork".

Also dropping the volume too much with several workouts per week didn´t work for you. Do what works for you. Easy runs, sub-LT runs, tempo runs, don´t drop the volume too much, avoid Daniels type HARD VO2max-tempo workouts and other speedwork. For some people races are basically the only speedwork they need with the normal training. Once you don´t improve anymore think again could you change something.

Diabetus for breakfast wrote:

Weekly milage during base: 40. Weekly milage when dropping: 20-25.

Yes, it's still low milage but it's the highest I've ever done.

To get over the hump, you have to know when to peak. Mastery of specialization can be difficult, but once learned, you will benefit greatly.

Once you get to a certain level as a runner than it is all about doing workouts that are going to increase your ability. So mileage should not be a focus. The focus should be on quality, minutes, and the purpose of each workout.

Example: You will see physical results from doing a long run in about 3-4 weeks, vo2max and hill sessions: 10-14 days, tempo runs 7-10 days, speed work: 1-3 days. Lets say that you are 3 weeks out from doing a race between 5k and half marathon, well you would want to get that long run in during that week so that you will benefit from it on race day. You would also do some Vo2max and hill stuff during the third week as well ( strides/speed/ and a tempo would be done in that week as well).

Now in the second week, you would not long run, because you wouldn't benefit from it to help you out with your race. It would be wasting energy and limiting your recovery. So in that second week you would definitely do some vo2max stuff, speed, and a tempo run.

In the week of the race you would mostly do stuff that would help you maintain your intensity. You would do a speed session, and a few cruise tempos ( 3 x 6 - 7 mins) so that you don't lose speed.

Specific training will ensure that you are always in RACE shape, and that you are capable of reaching your goal.

Also, another phase of that training is training at effort pace and not goal pace. You want to train 10 - 15 seconds above goal pace to make goal pace comfortable when you are racing.

Trust your training, and know that the endurance is in the bag, and that you just have to keep your speed fine tuned.

scorpion_runner wrote:

Example: You will see physical results from doing a long run in about 3-4 weeks, vo2max and hill sessions: 10-14 days, tempo runs 7-10 days, speed work: 1-3 days.

Where did you get these numbers? Not necessarily doubting but wanting to do further research.

I'm a 60-year-old who is racing at a similar pace, although hoping to get quicker (I did run a tempo at 19:00 for 4800m or about 6:20 per mile recently).

I'm running steady or recovery runs up to eight miles at 7:30, so I don't think that 8:00 min pace counts as tempo. It's what I run the recoveries between reps. I would say that for someone running about 6:20 in a 5k race, 8 minutes per mile is more like a recovery run.

A lot of running at 8:30 to 9:00 has almost certainly had a de-training effect on a lot of systems.

Making the easy pace easy makes sense if there are other tougher sessions. I would say that you need to do things like 5 or 6 x 1000m at race pace with about 2:30 recovery.

FriendlyLobo wrote:

scorpion_runner wrote:

Example: You will see physical results from doing a long run in about 3-4 weeks, vo2max and hill sessions: 10-14 days, tempo runs 7-10 days, speed work: 1-3 days.

Where did you get these numbers? Not necessarily doubting but wanting to do further research.

Coach Jeff's numbers are similar ...

Once I found out about that, my understanding of run training went to a greater level.https://runnersconnect.net/coach-corner/how-long-before-you-benefit-from-a-workout/

FriendlyLobo wrote:

scorpion_runner wrote:

Example: You will see physical results from doing a long run in about 3-4 weeks, vo2max and hill sessions: 10-14 days, tempo runs 7-10 days, speed work: 1-3 days.

Where did you get these numbers? Not necessarily doubting but wanting to do further research.

I'm a fast twitchy kinda guy and I have to keep my easy runs easy and do a modest volume of quality but make the reps longer and faster. So for me 6-7 x 800m @ 3km-5km pace with a 2min rest; 5 x 1mile @10km pace with 1-2min rest for tempo, and faster 400s @ mile pace down to 800m pace. I respond well to that stuff. But I also like long runs and find them beneficial as well.

You sound more like a slow-twitchy guy so a bigger volume of faster easy runs, longer tempo runs and higher volume of quality (e.g.,5 miles @ HM pace for tempo). And yes, while my easy runs can get as slow as 8:30 pace, you likely should be banging yours out in 7:30-8:00. I'm a 20min guy as well and when I was coached a few years ago my coach had me doing faster easy runs, like 7:30-7:45 (digress, back in the day when I was in 33min shape I did all my easy days at 6:30 and should have been running them in 7:00) and things like 12-16 x 400m @ 3000m pace with 1 min rest...and I got slower..a lot slower..my mile time went from 5:33 to 6:06! I couldn't break 22 for 5km!

So try making your easy days faster and see if that helps, and lay off the tempo for now and maybe do one faster workout per week at 5km pace and see how you progress.

Diabetus for breakfast wrote:

29 year old male who has been running for four years here. I also recreationally cycle for what it's worth.

I had a 19:45 minute 5k pr off doing 2 tempo runs (7:00 pace) a week, 3 easier sub tempo runs (8:00 pace) and one long run (mixed pace 7:15-8:45 depending on distance/feel) with a couple of strides at sub 6 pace twice a week for speed development. Time trails were also a staple.

I switched my training up in hopes of going for a 17/18 minute pr and did it like letsrunners do it. Lots of base building and easy milage at first, then dropped the volume and added about 3-4 sessions a week of quality/speedwork depending on what phase

" .....did it like letsrunners do it "

Start to look at how Salazar,Schumacher and many more pro top coaches do it. Not like how the most letsrunners do it.