Nick Symmonds idea

and you have to finish - so you can't just go all out for a lap or two and step off the track

get lapped and you lose all your winning to those who catch you

That is a lot of money, but I like the general idea and agree with you.

As someone who likes watching GT cycling, I've always thought that part of the fun of the tour was the fact that though they all go the same distance there are different opportunities for glory. Intermediate Sprints, Intermediate Climbs, overall points, KOM, GC, etc.

Though I know that stage racing generally wouldn't work for distance running, I'm surprised that a niche in ultra running hasn't come out yet with loop circuit type races with intermediate sprints and KOMS.

Think if it was an 80k race 4x20km loops. Loops 1,2,3 have two chances for KOM points and Sprint Points / lap. Since running is different and strongly favors those who are more fit (less team and drafting dynamic) no points awarded after lap three, however those in sprint or KOM points lead would have to finish X% behind winner to still get their prize.

Maybe overall prize was like 800,600,400 but KOM/ Sprint is 300,200,100. Maybe they get a special racing singlet, or differentiated trophy. I think that would be cool.

This would be a good race to watch, but also, super expensive. But I see your point.

I think this is brilliant. We should send this idea to Nick Symmonds, maybe he will include it.

That's not bad but you have to simplify it a little bit.

Perhaps leading the first lap is worth 1k

Second lap 2k

third lap 3k

fourth lap 4k

fifth lap 5k

etc.

This would not be AS HARD to judge. The entire race should be fast

because everyone would want the big money for leading. If it is a 5k you could make winning the race worth more than the entire race. But they still get some money for leading laps.

With something like this you would have to try it and see how people respond. It might be a fast race from the gun but you might have to also award prizes for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and so on at the finish. But doing that every lap seems tedious.

Gambling usually (always?) leads to corruption in sports, when the players can make more from fixing results.

Just make sure chelimo isn't entered

What about a "money lap"? Fastest time on a random lap gets $5k? It'll be like a random fartlek for cash.

Hdhdjdjd wrote:

Just make sure chelimo isn't entered

That's what I was thinking too! Chelimo would absolutely love a race like this and totally clean up (assuming it was just a US-only field).

went to the Stockholm DL meet 1 year and in the 5k they gave a bonus for the leader at 4 laps to go - 3 to go - 2 to go and 1 to go and of course the winner. I think the way it ended up working out was there was 1 guy who would surge coming into each of those and got all those bonuses and then finished like 3 or 4th, but adding up his winnings it ended up more than the winner.

made for some interesting racing

After the meet they brought the javelin guys back and each had 1 throw to try to hit a target on the field. Closest got some money

And in Oslo DL after the meet the javelin guys came back and had a snowball throwing contest for distance

Lebensborn wrote:

went to the Stockholm DL meet 1 year and in the 5k they gave a bonus for the leader at 4 laps to go - 3 to go - 2 to go and 1 to go and of course the winner. I think the way it ended up working out was there was 1 guy who would surge coming into each of those and got all those bonuses and then finished like 3 or 4th, but adding up his winnings it ended up more than the winner.

made for some interesting racing

After the meet they brought the javelin guys back and each had 1 throw to try to hit a target on the field. Closest got some money

And in Oslo DL after the meet the javelin guys came back and had a snowball throwing contest for distance

Forgot to add - things like this are better than the silly Race the Freeze BS at the TrackTown meet in NYC

That's just called paying the pacers, but if there is a leader vs. a time incentive, then you'll have slow times with a kick to each distance prime.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

That's just called paying the pacers, but if there is a leader vs. a time incentive, then you'll have slow times with a kick to each distance prime.

Resuming the GT cycling idea, the red and green jersey competitions are the most translatable--the most aggressive runner needs to be rewarded, not just the guy who finishes the lap up front.

Also, these ideas are pretty similar to the...Eliminator? race idea, wherein the last runner each lap gets cut (and the fastest guy preferably gets a bonus).

Here is the original idea of NS

https://www.motivrunning.com/running-life/the-voice-of-the-athlete/whats-wrong-with-pro-track-and-field/amp/

I'm not at all convinced he could make this happen for 2 million (with 1 million going straight to prize money). And he says it would be winner-take-all prizes, and there's no mention whatsoever of appearance fees. How the hell would he get runners 4-8 in a given event (who have no real shot at winning) to even show up?

Ryqwe wrote:

Here is the original idea of NS

https://www.motivrunning.com/running-life/the-voice-of-the-athlete/whats-wrong-with-pro-track-and-field/amp/

I'm not at all convinced he could make this happen for 2 million (with 1 million going straight to prize money). And he says it would be winner-take-all prizes, and there's no mention whatsoever of appearance fees. How the hell would he get runners 4-8 in a given event (who have no real shot at winning) to even show up?

That's what gate reciepts and television rights cover.

Why do you assume people are going to push the pace to get the lap bonus? More likely to win as much money as possible there will be 8 tactical races in an 8 lap race with a sprint to the finish every lap followed by 300 meters of jogging till the next finish straight. In the Fifth Avenue Mile there is a halfway bonus. Guy don't sprint out at the gun to win the bonus, they simply sprint when they near the halfway mark.

A.S. wrote:

Ryqwe wrote:

Here is the original idea of NS

https://www.motivrunning.com/running-life/the-voice-of-the-athlete/whats-wrong-with-pro-track-and-field/amp/

I'm not at all convinced he could make this happen for 2 million (with 1 million going straight to prize money). And he says it would be winner-take-all prizes, and there's no mention whatsoever of appearance fees. How the hell would he get runners 4-8 in a given event (who have no real shot at winning) to even show up?

That's what gate reciepts and television rights cover.

Oh yea because so many people go to track meets in the USA and all those meets on tv

Forgot about the gambling aspect.. I'm writing from a country where you can bet on every street corner.. New Zealand where sports betting is legal (like Australia and England), we average $100m turnover for each 1m population....

We have done promotions on athletics and it just doesn't gain much turnover... usually just Olympics and even then it's bugger all.. we might do $200k turnover for all the athletics at the Olympics.. compared to $1m for just 1 football game..

for betting go work, you need a decent completion which Symonds idea does have, but Americans are not typically sports bettors outside of the 4 major sports... and betting is not accessible as it is like other countries so can't just assume that because people bet on NFL or NBA, they will switch to betting on athletics.. doesn't work like that. A significant amount of betting now is "in-play", or during the game.. again Athletics does not lend itself to this...

So classic story, we ran a meet here, willis competing, Ryan whiting from USA in the shot put at a street event... we didn't bother with betting on the mile as willis wasn't going to lose despite being up against Gregson from Australia.. anyway I organised (I worked for a betting company at the time and love athletics so ensured out bookies took odds on it).. betting on the shot put.. the turnover was bugger all... now we had gambling for the event, beer was available.. but the event was successful not for those 2 reasons, but because we took the event to the people (heart of the city), was run staged downtown... no way we would have got the crowds had we organised it at the local track... so while gambling sounds sexy, it ain't the magic bullet...

And to those that say gambling on sports triggers match fixing.... that ship has sailed... trust me.. better to legalise it.. and control and regulate... rather than ban it... that is one thing where USA is behind the times.. NBA could be charging massive product fees to countries like NEW zealand if they legalised.. nz population is 5 million, and we turnover close to $150m on NBA alone.. imagine what countries like Australia and England are doing... with larger populations!! In contrast Athletics outside of an Olympic year is like $20k turnover - basically nothing!

Karl Hungus wrote:

This would be a good race to watch, but also, super expensive. But I see your point.

Great idea and to your point of the expense- yes but MAYBE this would increase the popularity of the sport.