How to get fast after 40

HGH/roids

It would be helpful to know what kind of training you are doing now. At some point, you will come up against the genetic cap on your abilities, but my guess is that you are not there yet. You will also reach the point where the improvements that you can attain by being relatively new to the sport will be offset by the facthat you are past your running prime (not being derisive - I am too).

I'd suggest reading a good training book or two. Personally, I'm a big advocate of Daniels' Running Formula (if you can find the second edition around anywhere, I prefer that to the gird edition).

If you have some disposable cash, it might be worthwhile to hire a coach. They're all over the place now, so be sure to find one who can tell you about the principles underlying their training approach. Make sure they have experience.

Generally, you should be doing some combination of 200/400s at mile race pace (early and late in a training cycle), 800s/1000s/1200s at 5k race pace or slightly faster with no more rest between intervals than the amount of time it takes you to do the interval (main portion of cycle), race modeling workouts (late in the cycle), and tempo efforts at :20-:30 per mile slower than 5k pace (all cycle). I tend to ignore hills, but that's because I live in a place with no hills, but they serve a very similar purpose to 200/400s in my worldview, and can and should be incorporated regularly since they are relatively low stress on your legs.

If you've been doing all of those things, and doing them in a smart and structured way, then you may be SOL.

actually I am using online coaches, and they seem to be giving me a nice looking program from the looks of it (tempos, intervals, long runs, tempo + hills, long runs with fast finish, etc...), and also running 50-60mpw, and still doing not better than when I was doing (about 4 years ago) only 30-40mpw. Back then, I was doing only three runs: one intervals (just km/mile repeats), one easy run (10K to 10 miles), and one medium-high effort long run (half marathon to 20 miles). I am on the verge of ditching my coaches. They have solid credentials (among them a sub 4 miler, a 2:20 marathoner, Sub 16 min 5K female runners, etc..), and a lot of people they are training seem to be improving a lot, but I am stuck.Shall I reduce mileage and do my runs always hard (no easy runs, except for warming up/cooling down) and replace the lost mileage with biking/elliptical?

hudsfan38 wrote:

HGH/roids

Geref and Aveed

Milder and safer.

first of all, way to go. quitting heavy smoking and losing a lot of weight and keeping it off [I infer] are terrific accomplishments.

Smoove, who is much faster than I am and more knowledgeable to boot, gave you excellent input, so I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but just wanted to throw in........

I'm not sold on the evidence that you've plateaued. It's always going to level off -- nothing is as helpful as getting started running, but even after that initial burst you knocked 9 mins. off marathon PR, and apparently ran your 5k PR as a master within past year.

And a 20:10 x-c 5k for someone with 18:45 track PR is not surprising at all, nor indicative of any problem really, depending on difficulty of course, accuracy of course length [many/most X-c races are imprecise in this sense], weather, etc.

One thing I think a coach, or really any objective third party, could do for you is take a look at full set of your race times over the years and weigh in on whether you're actually experiencing a noteworthy plateau.

Best wishes for continued success in your running and racing,

Dave

faster_wannabe wrote:

Hi all,

.

What is the best way to improve raw speed? I am asking because I think I have a relatively good endurance while my speed sucks big time (e,g. my 400 PR is 74sec and my 1K is 3:15).

I am also quite bad when it comes to hills. Is the solution for that hill repeats or incorporating hills on my tempo and interval routes?

raw speed: strengthen your legs. Quads, hams, calves, feet. Weights.

hills: strengthen your legs. Quads, calves, feet. Weights. And yes, run up hills and down hills at speed, during intervals and tempos.

If I'm doing 10 x 400 I'll do it on a hilly loop, with my GPS watch telling me when to go and rest. it's frustrating that time suddently means less...you don't get the immediate 'hey I did 10 400s in 80 seconds each!' but it will make you faster.

you decide if the tradeoff is worth it.

But i'm serious about strength. Make your legs stronger. even body weight squats every day will help.

I don't know if your goals are realistic or not. There are only two things that I am sure of:

1. Father time is undefeated.

2. Quality training (including the auxiliary stuff like sleep and diet) works for everybody and is the only way to improve (without getting into any dodgy business like HGH).

Not sure what we can say here. Yes, you are past your prime (I am too). Yes, you could have been much faster, in terms of absolute PRs and current speed, had you not had an unhealthy lifestyle. But, there's nothing you can do about it.

Keep on doing what you are doing - it seems to be working very well. You 1k PR is fantastic considering where you came from.

Finally, yes, hill repeats and hilly runs are a great way to train. Run hilly routes, do fast repeats, under 30 seconds, and do long repeats, too. I think some runners respond less to hill training than others, but hills and hill repeats have always been key for me, including benefiting 400m speed (just consider that many 'speed' athletes swear by hill training).

Don't turn 42.

bloob wrote:

Don't turn 42.

So far the best advice

This is a classic "I need to work on my speed when my endurance sucks" post.

60 mpw is way too little to run a sub 3 marathon at 41. You might know that 1 guy in your run club who's done it and therefore you think it's feasible for you do it on the same training. But why leave it to chance? 80 mpw minimum, and you guarantee it. Otherwise stop aiming for PR's and just accept the slowdown.

Runners who maintain their fast ability in their 40s,50s, and even 60s, and runners who get faster in their 40s understand the difference between pace and effort.

A lot of people train at pace, as opposed to training at effort, which is their times and speed don't improve.

Peter Magill wrote a wonderful article on the 5k puzzle, and how to really get faster as you mature in age. The focus of the article? Running based on effort, and not running based on pace.

Example: Lets say your race pace is 6:30, and you're trying to go sub 20. Well, that might just do it if you evenly split across the board, but that rarely happens, so that 5k time is going to end up being a 20 min time. So how do we correct that? We correct that by training at race effort and not race pace. If your race pace is 6:30, then your speed sessions and interval sessions should be run at a pace that is 10-15 seconds faster than that. Training at effort pace will allow you to run comfortable at race pace, so that you will be able to go all out, and run faster in the last couple of miles.

The goal is to train to increase your speed as the race goes on so that you can negative split.

I'm sort of in the same boat as you, where I started RACING( but running since I was 19...so I have always had an aerobic base) later in life ( at the age of 41 to be exact...I'm now 44), and I'm also focused on going sub 20. I have dropped my team each year

2014: 25 min 5k

2015: 23 min 5k

2016: 22 min 5k

2017: 20 min 5k ( which I just ran last week..I could have broken 20, but I stupidly ate 2 hours before the race, and I felt heavy as hell ) ....I also ran a 6:18 mile last month. The goal is to break sub 6 before the year is out.

All of that off of gradually increasing to 40 miles a week, and I have gotten my long run up to 13 miles a week.

As I increase my mileage and long runs - looking to hit 50 miles a week ( and sit there for about 6 months before going up to 60) and a 20 mile long run - my times are going to continue to drop. I believe my cap is 18 to ,possibly , a 17 min 5k. I can just feel it, but that's about another 2 years away. I will continue to run from 1500m to half marathon for another 2 years, and then, possibly, do my first marathon in 2019.

Do you do any track races or 1 mile races? If not, you should, that will help you out big time, and give you a lot of range. Plus it's fun and competitive as hell. Track racing is way more competitive than the road( I love both), because the runners are serious as hell, even for the all comers race....but that's a good thing.

Adjust your goals. A 42-year-old who runs an 18-minute 5K has an age-graded percentage of 77%. That is pretty high. Even 20 minutes for your age is 69%.

In other words, I'm sorry, but you are getting older and slower. It happens to everyone. You can't continue to improve forever. Otherwise, you'd be faster at 50 and 55 and 60 than you were at 40.

chiming in wrote:

1. Father time is undefeated.

Pre beat him..

I find it almost unbelievable that you were training only 3 times per week with 30-40mpw that included a 20-mile long run. If that was easily done and worked so well, then I'm wasting time putting in 70+ miles per week.

With respect to your situation, I'll relay a recent anecdote that may help: I run by alternating easy days with workout days. My workouts consist primarily of mile repeats at varying paces (e.g. 5k, cv, 10k, or hm), but also include tempos, long runs, progression runs, or a race. I occasionally do 400 repeats, but not terribly often. Recently, I decided to do a 1-mile PR attempt for a workout. Based on my times in recent races and Jack Daniels' calculator, I chose a pace that seemed to fit. I did my usual warm-up that I would before a race or workout day. It went horribly. Immediately afterward I was coughing quite a bit, and for 5 days afterward, whenever I breathed in too deeply while at rest, it would produce a painful cough. I reasoned that I had probably neglected vo2max workouts. I will be attempting to remedy this by doing a mile PR or near-PR run every 2 to 3 weeks. If you have a different method of getting in a vo2max workout, I recommend doing it, but definitely don't neglect vo2max.

scorpion_runner wrote:

2017: 20 min 5k ( which I just ran last week..I could have broken 20, but I stupidly ate 2 hours before the race, and I felt heavy as hell ) ....I also ran a 6:18 mile last month. The goal is to break sub 6 before the year is out.

20 minutes flat for a 5k is about 6:26 pace, but all you could muster for a mile was 6:18? Even if you meant that you ran a 20:59 instead of 20:00, you are in desperate need of some speedwork.

Gonna echo the strength training answer. If you really are already at 50-60mpw and over 40 I'd add lifting before more miles. A big part of the aging process is loss of muscle mass and drop in testastarone, weight training at the very least will slow those downs. Squats, deadlifts...those sorts of things will help slow down the aging. Plus, strength training helps with neuromuscular adaptation, which is what you need fornspeed. Just don't over do it.

If that's too intimidating, hills. If you live next to Smoove, 200s and 400s.

3:15 km is good considering 74s 400m. Try some speedwork - 10x100m@18s or 5x200m@38-40s once a week, not all out but hard and relaxed.

lolllzz wrote:

scorpion_runner wrote:

2017: 20 min 5k ( which I just ran last week..I could have broken 20, but I stupidly ate 2 hours before the race, and I felt heavy as hell ) ....I also ran a 6:18 mile last month. The goal is to break sub 6 before the year is out.

20 minutes flat for a 5k is about 6:26 pace, but all you could muster for a mile was 6:18? Even if you meant that you ran a 20:59 instead of 20:00, you are in desperate need of some speedwork.

I ran 20:50, and I didn't go all out in my 1 mile track race, because at the time that was my first track race. So I was conservative to make sure I could get through the first 800m ( which is 2 mins of death), but in the second 800m I poured it on. I think I went out in about 6:50 for the first 800

I probably could have run 6-5:55 had I poured it on, but again It's better to be safe then to be sorry. Track running is like a huge shock to the body. It feels good and like death at the same time. So I'm proud of my 6:18 mile, because it will on get better.

Now, in my next 1 mile track race, I'm sure I can do sub 6. My speed work and training have increased big time since then.

I like to move gradually when it comes to improving, so that I'm comfortable in my speed, strength and form. I like to be in control when running. that is very very important to me. I don't like to look like crap or feel like crap, and my training and approach has been working, since I have improved every year.

scorpion_runner wrote:

Runners who maintain their fast ability in their 40s,50s, and even 60s, and runners who get faster in their 40s understand the difference between pace and effort.

Not buying it & it's not that simple. It's more like older runners understand the difference between being healthy and able to train in the first place versus those runners that are chronically injured and can't train consistently. The injury rate goes up exponentially with most runners in their 50s & 60s...who would have thought.