CIF (California) discussing whether middle schoolers allowed to compete on HS teams

I have heard nothing of this. Of course, I haven't been paying too much attention either. I'm more interested in CA raising the enrollment cap for d5. Currently we are on the very small end of the D4 enrollment (600-1500).

Not having to run against schools almost 2.5 times as big as us would help more than adding a couple of 8th graders to our roster.

Please Be True wrote:

I've been told by an older coach in our area that CIF is considering test driving this idea in division 5, the smallest schools, in 2018 due to so many of those teams not being able to field a full squad of 7. If it's successful divisions 1-4 would follow suit in 2019.

This is wonderful.

What do you guys think?

This is a great idea. I'm 100 percent in favor of this.

I don't know much about the states that encourage middle schoolers to race with their high school teams. Do a higher percentage of those competing in middle school go on to compete in college?

What they might do 10 years later is unknown, the same as for boys.

Please Be True wrote:

I've been told by an older coach in our area that CIF is considering test driving this idea in division 5, the smallest schools, in 2018 due to so many of those teams not being able to field a full squad of 7. If it's successful divisions 1-4 would follow suit in 2019.

What do you guys think? I don't know much about the states that encourage middle schoolers to race with their high school teams. Do a higher percentage of those competing in middle school go on to compete in college?

I'm sorry to disagree with you blokes but I can't think of one reason why this would be a good idea. Not one.

If implemented maybe in a couple of years we can get the elementary school kids on the team too.

Multiple JH feed into one HS. Often a JH population is split between 2 or more HS. Where would they compete?

No way this goes through.

Not gunna happen wrote:

Multiple JH feed into one HS. Often a JH population is split between 2 or more HS. Where would they compete?

No way this goes through.

Whatever high school attendance zone the JR high student lives in.

I'm not a fan. I've seen too many CA coaches run teams into the ground in hopes of producing one or two superstars, and extending those coaches the option to train middle schoolers genuinely scares me. I imagine most coaches would be very careful working with kids who are coming from little to no serious running background, but if there's even one coach who abuses this system and gets middle schoolers injured--and there will be--then I'd rather not see it implemented.

I am a Div 4 coach in the same league as Division 5 schools.

I had a question as to how this would work at the league level. If Division 5 schools are allowed to have middle school athletes, but not division 4 teams would that be unfair? Certainly it would be difficult to explain to my athletes and parents when they are wondering why other teams in our league get to have middle school athletes while we do not. Also, some D5 schools have middle schools associated with them, but many do not. Most private schools do not have any true feeder schools.

In the end, I can see the motivation, but I think it is a bad idea.

Terrible idea. Just look at instagram.com/amberunz to see what happens when middle schoolers start training full time. They get overexcited and overtrained. Chances of burnout are through the roof.

A lot of middle school girls can run with their high school counterparts. I think it would be a lot easier to keep girls running XC or track and field, than start them cold as soon as they show up to high school.

I'm not in California, but we have this in Massachusetts. A number of middle school girls on the high school teams.

I'm against it. My younger daughter just finished 7th grade and is being pushed by the XC coach to run on the high school team. ( she has been in the top 10 in the state middle school race the past couple years). I don't think she is yet ready to race two 5ks per week and do that volume of training.

With soccer, I think the size issue is a concern. Don't want the kids to get injured by someone twice their size

Is this just to close a perceived advantage by NY teams?

I think it is to close the perceived advantage by N.Y. teams and other states that allow middle schoolers.

Coach wrote:

I think it is to close the perceived advantage by N.Y. teams and other states that allow middle schoolers.

I was pretty sure. I'd really want to see the numbers on participation, etc.

In Alabama they do it. It's because small schools can't field full teams, and besides, many of the small country schools or private schools already include middle school as part of the same entity as high school.

One school district in particular abuses this though. They take 7th and 8th grade girls (who are naturally talented, and faster than the high schoolers) from the Jr. High and bus them over to the HS track every day for practice, and they run them into the ground in 2 years. They come down with chronic bone stress injuries and often can't run again until they are juniors, maybe seniors. By then, they are done.

Alabama has a rule that only 7-12 can compete, and at least that prevents the even younger kids from suffering that fate.

I know I benefited from this, because I made the varsity XC team as a 7th grader, and I wasn't even that good. It gave me the experience that would help me later. The coach back then also had us do some pure sprint work, which may have helped a bit. Still lacking in that department though.

Here in Florida, I believe the rule is that smaller schools may allow middle school students to compete so long as the middle school is on the same campus as the high school. The rule does help teams fill out their rosters.

You arguably (and perhaps predictably) see a much greater impact on team structure and potential results on the girls' side than on the boys' side.

Compare, for instance, small school results from last year's FL state XC championship for girls:

http://www.fhsaa.org/sites/default/files/orig_uploads/sports/cross-country/archives/2016-17/state/girls_1a_cc_2016.pdf

And for boys:

http://www.fhsaa.org/sites/default/files/orig_uploads/sports/cross-country/archives/2016-17/state/boys_1a_cc_2016.pdf

I see you don't understand how many school districts work or the education system in California.

First, many districts have open enrollment. Meaning students can go to any school in the district. Others have specific boundaries which the student must attend.

There is no way a middle school principle will allow some students to compete for one HS, and others to another.

There is no way a middle school principal will pay for transportation, uniforms, coaches, etc.

There is no way a high school principal will accept liability of a 11-14 year old.

There is no way a high school principal will take on the extra cost of transportation, staff, uniforms, etc.

For the few that may have a strong booster base this will create enough logistical nightmares that this will absolutely never happen.

In a side note an open division is in the works. But this is not.

I'm not a sexist pig wrote:

A lot of middle school girls can run with their high school counterparts. I think it would be a lot easier to keep girls running XC or track and field, than start them cold as soon as they show up to high school.

Why would you think that? It's not hard to get them to start now, no matter the gender.

As mentioned earlier, its not a good idea at all. Figure out some other way to help out smaller schools if they have problems fielding enough kids.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Coach wrote:

I think it is to close the perceived advantage by N.Y. teams and other states that allow middle schoolers.

I was pretty sure. I'd really want to see the numbers on participation, etc.

If you think CIF cares one bit about NXN you are sorely mistaken. If anything, CIF would vote against anything that helped CA schools at post-season meets. If NXN had been around during the Cretacious period when the white-hairs currently in power were competing then maybe this thing would go through. Otherwise, no chance because everyone in power at CIF has their PhD in problem-finding and solution-squashing.

I'd be happy to be in an open-division. We'd get our faces kicked in, but it's better than beating up on lesser teams.

Wow, there are a lot of "7s" and "8s" in that first page, even one "6" for the girls in Florida. There were almost no "10s" at all. Pretty crazy that the 7th grade all-star team would destroy the 10th graders.