Is Said Aouita the greatest villain in track and field history?

I wonder if Cram is actually taking a sly pop at Aouita in his article on Ramzi's drug bust. Everything he says about Ramzi could be applied to Aouita if not more so. He even states Aouita was Ramzi's inspiration .

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/may/05/rashid-ramzi-drugs-athletics-steve-cram

@Said - yeah, Aouita's words can be interpreted differently, but even with second rate English he must have been aware it was stupid to accuse fellow athletes of 'cheating' for running supposedly inconsistent times. I guess Aouita was 'cheating' before 83 by not giving it his all.

Coevett wrote:

Yeah, bit unfair to claim Aouita has a 6-0 head to head over Ovett (you list it and then say you would never list it. What a completely immoral idiot you are). .

I've listed a fact. But added, that from this I would never do the conclusion (which - in Ovett's case - you probably would do) that this in any case is a good measure for some comparison. Just the - obviously new for you - fact about their head to head hammered you so deeply that you directly have to call me the way you have done.

You are immoral. Constantly lying and changing facts for proving something. You are a liar. Definitely.

Continuing that he has run 1:50 and 3:40 when in fact already in1980 he has run 3:37.08. No comments to his other achievements.

When has Aouita claimed that he has run 36 seconds for the last 300? Where? This was published at the time.

Again no comments to the other points.

Unfortunately I can't give you back the other which you have called me. It's way to friendly.

What does it say about Coe, Cram, Ovett to be friends (the first two) of someone they know he wanted to kill them (and probably still want)?

Coevett wrote:

@Said - yeah, Aouita's words can be interpreted differently, but even with second rate English he must have been aware it was stupid to accuse fellow athletes of 'cheating' for running supposedly inconsistent times. I guess Aouita was 'cheating' before 83 by not giving it his all.

Yes, they can be interpreted differently. But not in the way you did. Moron.

Coevett wrote:

I wonder if Cram is actually taking a sly pop at Aouita in his article on Ramzi's drug bust. Everything he says about Ramzi could be applied to Aouita if not more so. He even states Aouita was Ramzi's inspiration .

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/may/05/rashid-ramzi-drugs-athletics-steve-cram

Those Moroccan runners were full throttle with the rocket fuel in the 2000's. Several positives over a 10 yr span after the initial EPO test was developed...who could have imagined? Ramzi went nuclear winning double gold at Helsinki, and Adil Kaouch, who was busted in 07, was in on action grabbing a silver in a one - two Moroccan punch:

Aouita infamously was kicked out of Australia in 2006 for urging multiple athletes under his wing to take HGH, telling them they must take it in order to win.

HGH first became available as a PED in 1982, and was only made illegal in 1989, the last successful year of Aouita's career.

"Continuing that he has run 1:50 and 3:40 when in fact already in1980 he has run 3:37.08. No comments to his other achievements."

- I understand that you're upset; but without being too inflammatory, I'd really suggest you read the posts from the Kada book previously listed. I think you'll see where the idea comes from of his stagnation at 3:40/1:50. I think it's hard to deny that he was an entirely new athlete in '83. Establishment of an Italian doctor is unfortunately, further damning.

Yes, he runs 3:37 in 1980 with 'one year of serious training' and then spends the next two years on the European circuit in paced races struggling to break 3:40. The guy with the talent to break every WR from 800 to 10000. Now that's 'fishy'.

0/10 for Coevett on this thread.

The Australian coaching hatchet job was orchestrated by a disgruntled Aussie coach overlooked yet again for the head job - one of his athletes made the unsubstantiated claim. Identified as an easy target and fuelled by lazy racism. Nothing came of it all but easy for nobodies to throw mud at real achievers - seems to happen all the time on these boards right Coevett!

Status quo maintained in Australia MD ranks - same old training regimens same old mid-ranking results - but not surprising when no one has a kick or change of pace from training more like marathoners. Anyway, in his mid teens only ever had been playing soccer, Aouita told to run a 3 k and runs low 8 mins - teenage phenom anyone?

The 10km debut in Oslo - beat everyone who was anyone in the event and ran the race with blood soaking his spikes from being badly spiked - at the time was the best debut ever.

1988 destroyed everyone in the 800m on Euro track circuit in lead up to Seoul Olympics. Foolishly injured his hamstring in near final track session in Seoul days before the heats - crazy effort to get the bronze.

And someone questioned his range!! Even ran a 8:20ish steeple for a one off!

Was a great era - so many great athletes Walker, Ovett, Coe, Cram, Scott, Spivey, Elliott, Moorcroft - so many more. Was a great time on the circuit and at major champs. Only bummer was the race dodging - still happens today though - worst was Coe v Ovett but helped build anticipation at majors. All at their peak were not afraid to put it on the line including Cram, Aouita, Walker, Ovett, Coe, Scott and others.

Definitely an all time great.

80sLegends wrote:

0/10 for Coevett on this thread.

The Australian coaching hatchet job was orchestrated by a disgruntled Aussie coach overlooked yet again for the head job - one of his athletes made the unsubstantiated claim. Identified as an easy target and fuelled by lazy racism. Nothing came of it all but easy for nobodies to throw mud at real achievers - seems to happen all the time on these boards right Coevett!

Status quo maintained in Australia MD ranks - same old training regimens same old mid-ranking results - but not surprising when no one has a kick or change of pace from training more like marathoners. Anyway, in his mid teens only ever had been playing soccer, Aouita told to run a 3 k and runs low 8 mins - teenage phenom anyone?

.

Well, I don't know about 0/10. Perhaps I've been too harsh given there is no definitive proof that Aouita doped, but I've revealed a few facts about Aouita's career here that I've only seen mentioned once or twice ever on forums, so I think I've facilitated a much needed discussion given that Aouita was accused by a number of athletes of encouraging illegal doping, and he ran away from those accusations. The language I've used is mostly down to said88 personally abusing me simply for questioning Aouita as the greatest runner ever.

Well I've never read your interpretation of the Australian case before. Are you connected in some way to the coaching scene in Australia then or now? You also get it wrong in saying just one 'disgruntled' athlete made these accusations. Several respected athletes did. Seems a stretch that a number of athletes would make such false allegations against a legendary runner just because they would have preferred somebody else in the job. I would have thought most middle-distance runners would jump through hoops to be coached by someone like Aouita.

So if he runs an 8k 3000m in his first ever (literally) race as a raw schoolboy how does it come about that he spends two or three years on the European circuit in his early twenties - when at an elite sporting institute in France? And why the remarkable improvement the moment he moves to Italy and gets himself an Italian doctor? Can any Aouita defender explain this?

As for me being not fit to be scraped off one of aouita's running shoes, very true, but the reason for this thread is that there is clearly circumstantial evidence that Aouita doped, and if he did so, there's a case to be made that he really is the greatest villain in athletics history in that he led the way for the 30 year of (particularly African) doping that went after it that has ruined the sport.

Now you can try to make the argument that 'everybody in the 80s was at it', or you can use the fact that blood doping wasn't made illegal until 86 and HGH until 89, but it just doesn't seem credible to me that Aouita did not start using PEDs in the winter of 82/83.

Aouita's seasonal bests:

800m / 1000m / 1500m / 1 Mile / 2000m / 3000m / 5000m / 3000mSt

1979: / / 3:42.3 / / / / 13:48.5 / 8:40.16

1980: 1:48.8 / 2:20.0 / 3:37.08 / / / 8:02.1 / /

1981: 1:47.0 / 2:26.9(i) / 3:37.69 / / / / 13:39.0 /

1982: 1:47.4 / 2:19.22 / 3:37.37 / 3:57.75 / 5:02.44 / 8:01.59 / 14:05.7 /

It should be added that he has run the odd distances usually just once per season.

In 1981 he has won the World University Games 1500m and in 1982 he has won two medals (800m/1500m) at the African Championships.

In 1982 he has won on the track - for example - against Thomas Wessinghage, José Manuel Abascal, Craig Masback, Pascal Thibault, Abderahmane Morceli, Babacar Niang, Omar Khalifa, Wodajo Bulti.

In Cross Country (long course) he has won (in 81 and 82) - for example - against: Jaques Boxberger ,Dominique Chauvelier, Jeseph Mahmoud, Karel Lismont, Bruno LeStum and Carlos Lopes.

He obviously has already shown his great range, and his will to change, as he once described it. And he has had some great victories against absolute top-level runners. Over 800m. Over 1500m. Over 3000m. And in the Cross. Over 1500m in 80, 81, 82 he was the Nr. 28, 30, 23 performer (Nr. 4 in 83). But for sure, he still has not yet reached the highest level.

I ask you: What does it say about someone, when he sums this several times(!) as:! "Aouita has had problems in beating 1:50 and 3:40 for three years"? It very clearly shows: he is not interested in the facts, but just in one thing: to show how unbelievable Aouita's improvement in 1983 was (again, he is not interested to show how the improvement really was, but just to show it was unbelievable).

For sure Aouita has had a great improvement. But still, staying to the facts always is better than not.

And it definitely should be added, that Aouita started just very late with serious running.

Coevett wrote:

Well, I don't know about 0/10. Perhaps I've been too harsh given there is no definitive proof that Aouita doped, but I've revealed a few facts about Aouita's career here that I've only seen mentioned once or twice ever on forums, so I think I've facilitated a much needed discussion given that Aouita was accused by a number of athletes of encouraging illegal doping, and he ran away from those accusations. The language I've used is mostly down to said88 personally abusing me simply for questioning Aouita as the greatest runner ever.

.

What an unbelievable brazenness.

I invite anybody who is bold enough to read here at all, just to read the full thread (but you need good nerves) here and also the other about the greatest distance runner. Coevett is a damn liar. I not even myself ever have said Aouita is the greatest runner ever.

What I just have done is to correct wrong statements or totally unfoundet comments from Coevett - again and again.

For example:

Coe 0.48 seconds faster than Aouita: for him that's almost 1 second

Aouita runs 1:43.86: for him that's barely sub 1:44

Ovett runs 1:44.81: for him for sure that's a 1:44

Both the 1984 5000m and the 1988 800m final were just very weak finals His reasoning for the 88 one: no World Record holder present and for the 84 one: just age-old milers did run this strange event back in the day). I gave a lot of reasons why this is very, very questionable.

He has claimed again and again that Aouita has "dodged" Coe, when more the opposite seems to be true: "It seems we can't have this" - Sebastian Coe.

See also the post above.

He has claimed to know how Aouita's 2 Miles WB was run (he doesn't know nything about it but has never accapted)

He puts it like Aouita never ever has run a serious race, has dodged any runner on the planet anytime (we are talking about the man who has raced Cram and Cruz over 800m and Mamede, Cova, Antibo, Mei, Panetta, Nenow... over 10000m). I tried to put it in perspecrtive (again and again), but there comes the moment where the written bullshit just is to much and it's getting very difficult to be friendly anymore.

I could go on and on.

And now he infamously claims someting which never ever was in question. Again: I have never even said myself, that Aouita is the greatest ever (nor do I think he is). What an cowardly character.

said88 wrote:

For example:

Coe 0.48 seconds faster than Aouita: for him that's almost 1 second

Aouita runs 1:43.86: for him that's barely sub 1:44

Ovett runs 1:44.81: for him for sure that's a 1:44

Both the 1984 5000m and the 1988 800m final were just very weak finals His reasoning for the 88 one: no World Record holder present and for the 84 one: just age-old milers did run this strange event back in the day). I gave a lot of reasons why this is very, very questionable.

He has claimed again and again that Aouita has "dodged" Coe, when more the opposite seems to be true: "It seems we can't have this" - Sebastian Coe.

.

I stand by all my points. I don't even understand what you're saying above. Ovett runs 1:44.81?? What are you talking about? 1:43.86 is indeed barely sub 1:44

At this point I don't have any respect for you. You started name calling right from the start yet, you defend drug cheats, and you want me banned just because I happen to disagree with you.

Aouita did dodge the Brits in LA. Aouita is on record in the 80's as saying his favourite distance was the 1500m. He's also on record as saying that he chose the 5000m in 1987 because he had the best chance to win in the 5000m. He obviously chose to run the 5000 in LA because it was easier.

I've read that the Zurich promoter wanted Coe and Aouita to chase the WR in the 1500m. Coe apparently told him that he would agree to a race against Aouita OR a solo WR attempt. That seems fair if the 1500m was going to be Aouita's chance to show he would have won in LA. Well he had his fu***ng chance in LA and he didn't take it by electing to run the 5000. So Aouita agreed to go for Coe's WR in the Mile that night, but ended up failing miserably and was chased home by John Walker 7 years past his best.

Aouita's mile from Zurich was uploaded to YouTube a couple of months ago (first time I think). If you compare Aouita's performance in the mile with Coe's in the 1500m then you realize who was ducking who. Maybe Aouita would have got another bronze if he'd run the 1500m in LA but I'm not sure he had the beating of Abascal on this form. With better pacing Coe looked good for a 3:28 that night, even with a slight injury. Aouita had to run flat out to beat Walker. 26.5 for the last 200m shows how ludicrous Ventolin's claim of him running a final 36 sec in a 1500m earlier that season was.

I want to add to my stats, that Robert Hartmann, the most renowned athleics journalsit in Germany at the time, an african and distance running specialist, mentioned that Aouita in 81 has run 1:46.4 and 3:34.9 in training. But for sure there is no proof for this.

Compare Aouita's run above with Coe's run in the 1500m. Coe would have destroyed Aouita that night, just as he would have in LA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOVrht9WIvE

said88 wrote:

I want to add to my stats, that Robert Hartmann, the most renowned athleics journalsit in Germany at the time, an african and distance running specialist, mentioned that Aouita in 81 has run 1:46.4 and 3:34.9 in training. But for sure there is no proof for this.

I'm honestly surprised Aouita hasn't claimed to have run a 1:40 and a 3:25 in training in the 80's.

He could run 1:46 and 3:34 in training in 81 and yet couldn't run those times in all the paced races he had on the European circuit in 81 and 82????? You make Calculo look rational.

I really don't need your respect.

Constantly writing things as fact which nobody really knows is on the same level than lying.

1.44.81 - Ovett's LA semi-final time for sure a "1:44"

1:43.86 - Aouita's Cologne time for sure just barely under 1:44

and so on.

But you are very objective. When Ovett puts opponents 1 meter (!) adrift during a race, than it's a mens sport, when Aouita talks stupidity (probably still the main point lost in translation and totally different from what you first WANTED to read) than he is close to a IS fighter.)

Now you can decide from a video of a race who has "dodged" someone.

Aouita has already in 86 stated that he wanted to atack the 10000m WR early in 87 and than run the double (5k/1ok) at the worlds.

Anything which I have written is correct.

Maybe you just continue with your mission.

rubbish

rubbish

please explain why he coudn't crack 1'46 & got thrashed over 800 in home meet ???

utter joke

why coudn't he break 1'46 ???

utter joke

why coudn't he break 1'46 in '84 ???

it's nonsense

learn to think

i saw him on tv over any serious pacing

cram was rubbish coming into games

he was rubbish in them as well

no

Aouita woud in 36-low in 3'34.8

nonsense

coe won boycott games

36-low in 3'34.8+ is quantum universe beyond coe !!!

He ran 11m+ wide and had only 350m of drafting to bell[/quote]

nonsense

9m with ~ 500m drafting

is this a joke ???

boycott meet

learn some history

worthless meet

[/quote]and his 7th race in 9 days. If it had been Ryun or pretty much anyone else, you'd have knocked off 2 or 3 secs for the heat, smog and tired legs[/quote]

no

Ryun ran it in 95F

offer what coe claimed for it in his day ?

it's a non -ve

you are hugely outta your depth

drivel

drivel

drivel

kid

you don't misdiagnose toxo

"feral cats in rome !!!

utter total drivel

don't waste boar's time

utterly worthless article from history

is this a joke ???

what HIV scare you know in '83 ?

it was virtually unknown until mid-'80s

impress board

how many blood transfusions have you administered including in '80s ?

is this a joke ?

early-'80s :

transfusion : quick/easy & cheap !

offer other

no

get a clue

you don't have about medicine

transfusions were "wild" upto '80s-mid when french guy developed a test

you really have no clue about medicine

nonsense

easy blood available for any back in-'70s/'80s

HIV was non-existent consideration until '90s

coe with toxoplamosis +ve was hugely guilty

what is this drivel ?

what are you offering ???

why did he have huge infection ???

where did huge toxoplasmosis infection come from ???

is this a joke ???

one is insidious illness, other a possible acute

you offer rubbish, far out of your depth

is this a joke ???

you desperately try to defend

TOXO !!!

calculo wrote:

you really have no clue about medicine

And you do? 😁. Btw, your material is getting old...get some new stuff or stick to playing bingo at the senior centers.