why do Jack Daniels M pace workouts destroy me?

Daniels never used to include work at M pace for 5k/10k training. I am fairly certain that this only shows up in the 3rd edition of his book. Honestly, I think he did it to accommodate the fact that runs at marathon pace became fairly popular in other training plans, and he had to (a) try to keep up with changing times, and (b) justify a new edition of his book.

At the same time that he added in M pace runs, he did away with the table that allowed for you to calculate your pace when you draw out your 20 minute tempo run to a longer run. My understanding is that he actually did away with 20 minute tempo runs in favor of cruise intervals in that 3rd edition too.

With Daniels, I always go back to "What physiological adaptation am I trying to achieve?" as the baseline question. Given the context I described above, I think he decided to use long M runs in place of 20 minute threshold and the associated longer, slower, drawn out tempo efforts.

Accordingly, if I hated and dreaded the M pace runs the way you do, I would cut them from the plan and do straight 20 minute tempo runs, or longer and slower tempo runs (say 35 minute tempo runs ant :10 per mile slower than T pace) in their place.

As an aside, I do in fact hate and dread the M pace runs that Daniels prescribes for his marathon training cycles, but I do them anyway because they are essential for marathon training. But they are really hard for me and he functionally treats them as among the harder workouts in his cycle. So you are not alone.

You are basing your marathon pace off of 5k/10k times. Do you honestly think you could finish a marathon at that pace?

My sense is that your question is directed at the OP, but for the record, I am 0-3 at finishing a marathon at the pace indicated I should be able to by the VDOT tables.

Jimmy21 wrote:

You are basing your marathon pace off of 5k/10k times. Do you honestly think you could finish a marathon at that pace?

I agree with Jimmy here. When I did the Daniels plan last season, I also did not fare well with the M pace workouts. They were not comfortable at all. After thinking about it more, I thought his M pace was a little too optimistic, considering I had only been back to running less than a year. Sure, my 5K races were better, but they never translated up in distance. Part of it could be you are more FT than ST.

Jeremy R wrote:

Jimmy21 wrote:

You are basing your marathon pace off of 5k/10k times. Do you honestly think you could finish a marathon at that pace?

I agree with Jimmy here. When I did the Daniels plan last season, I also did not fare well with the M pace workouts. They were not comfortable at all. After thinking about it more, I thought his M pace was a little too optimistic, considering I had only been back to running less than a year. Sure, my 5K races were better, but they never translated up in distance. Part of it could be you are more FT than ST.

I thought the OP might be more FT than ST but I also thought his difficulty might be because he didn't have enough endurance because of his relatively low training volume (even if he might tend toward ST). Although he's finding recovery from M pace workouts difficult, the question is whether they are effective or not.

i could not run a marathon at the Jack Daniels VDOT M pace.

I can easily run the prescribed 8-10 miles at M pace though. i could probably do a half marathon at that pace to, and still have some in the tank. i top out at about 15 miles and really have no desire to run further than that for training or a race.

it's the recover that knocks me out.

Why do you guys take his book so literal, when he stated that those numbers and phases are recommendations?

If you find the pace or workout to be extreme, then reduce the pace or the workouts. If the recommended M pace is too fast, just reduce the pace to a more comfortable pace. You will reap the same benefits without the burnout.

Every week there is post about Jack Daniel's paces being too aggressive or to passive.....just adjust to what you are comfortable with.

i was a pretty good swimmer in HS. without a doubt, i placed higher at championship meets in sprints. my 500 time was fairly sad compared to my 50/100.

i THINK for running, i'm also FT. last time i tried to time trial multiple events reasonably close to one another with the same level of fitness, i was 1:01/400 2:26/800 5:40/mile 19:45/5k 40:30/10k. never time trialed past those distances. ever. at the moment, i'm about 2 vdots stronger than that.

M pace is actually fairly comfortable while I'm doing it. half way in and i sometimes get that euphoria from being in the midst of a legit workout, and feeling good while i do it. I'd say i could drop my last mile by a good 20 seconds at the end of most M workouts - but i don't dare, cuz i don't want to be taken out with injury.

i do tons of 10-15 mile social runs in the mountains - easy pace. so i don't feel like the M workouts are a complete waste when my overall running patterns are taken into account.

it's just i don't understand why M pace leaves me so epically trashed the rest of the day and the next day. every time. maybe JD thinks that is normal?

Don't feel alone. I too have Daniel's third edition and did the 5k/10k plan starting in phase 2 thru phase 4. The marathon paced runs seemed pointless at first, but I think his reasoning for it was to break up the same slow long runs week after week. The M paced runs were exclusive to your long run day if I'm not mistaken.

Going by what your saying about 30mpw and occasionally hitting up to 45mpw it's no wonder you feel burnt out a few days after your M paced runs. If you were at 30mpw then jumped into phase 2 in a 40mpw plan it would make alot of sense why you're more tired then you'd expect to be days after. No offense but I believe you're not properly aerobically conditioned for 2x5 mile or 10 mile M paced long runs. I think you'd be better off doing strict easy running on your long runs since I believe your long runs were likely less than 9 miles before you started the 5k plan. Once you can crank out 10 mile easy long runs without fatigue the days after it. then you can slowly add in M paced runs, but trying to hit M pace on your long runs and adding more mileage while the I,R, and T paces, you could be setting yourself up for early burn out. Of course I could be wrong about everything.

M runs are tricky for me too. I also do the 5k 10k plan and here is what I've learned about M paced runs:

I start doing them a bit shorter and slower than prescribed. Even if I feel good, I run them a bit easier early in the training cycle. I will end up doing them pretty much as written about 3 or 4 runs in. I will also swap them out for a typical long run if I'm feeling roughed up during the first couple of easy miles.

I agree that recovery can be hard. M runs are sneaky in that they often feel great, but they ARE fatiguing your legs after you've held the pace for a while. You may not feel it while you're running, but your form may be breaking down late into an M run. This can make the recovery difficult.

I also think that they're one of the most beneficial runs, psychologically and physically in the whole program. They're a huge confidence booster once you've gotten the hang of them.

The fact that people believe that Daniels wants to lock you into a specific pace on every single run is the single most frustrating thing for me on these boards. It bothers me more than the average poster's inability to conjugate the verb run in all tenses.

Essentially no individualizations, and myopic training principles.

If you're smart you'll leave Daniels in the library or bookstore.

Smoove wrote:

The fact that people believe that Daniels wants to lock you into a specific pace on every single run is the single most frustrating thing for me on these boards. It bothers me more than the average poster's inability to conjugate the verb run in all tenses.

scorpion_runner wrote:

Why do you guys take his book so literal, when he stated that those numbers and phases are recommendations?

If you find the pace or workout to be extreme, then reduce the pace or the workouts. If the recommended M pace is too fast, just reduce the pace to a more comfortable pace. You will reap the same benefits without the burnout.

Every week there is post about Jack Daniel's paces being too aggressive or to passive.....just adjust to what you are comfortable with.

After I cycled off his 5k/10k plan, it was enough for me to understand what certain paces feel like. When I first started with that plan I was just lile the OP and religiously followed every pace and every interval regardless of how good or bad I felt. By the late phase3 early phase4 I finally got the sense of awareness about how I should be feeling more than what some number said I should be running in sync with my gps watch. Today I still use the book and will begin a new cycle in a few months, but this time with more sense of awareness off effort. Still learning. When you first get the book the opening sentence should be not to take everything literally, that could help a lot of people. It's not until you start feeling burnt out or overly fatigued is when you start questioning the plan on these message boards only to find out it's a skeleton plan and you put the meat on it where applicable.

Smoove wrote:

The fact that people believe that Daniels wants to lock you into a specific pace on every single run is the single most frustrating thing for me on these boards. It bothers me more than the average poster's inability to conjugate the verb run in all tenses.

I've ran the M workout but barely was able to running through the finish, and my body was totally runned down the next day. I mean wrecked! I run yesterday an M workout, for example, and today I barely ranned from my house to the mailbox. I'm hoping to ran a 5K this weekend but my ranning has been going so poorly, I might not ran at all.

Smoove wrote:

Why do you guys take his book so literal, when he stated that those numbers and phases are recommendations?

After years of only reading comments about Running Formula, I finally picked up a copy of the third edition ... and was amazed at how flexible Daniels is in his recommendations.

That is, IF you actually read the text, rather than just look at the tables and schedules. He emphasizes that although there are basic principles that apply to everyone, individual response can vary a lot, and should be part of the equation.

He also states that the specific benefits of M-pace runs are almost completely psychological ... that easy runs provide the same aerobic benefit.

Unless in a race situation, I have never been able to run more than a few miles at marathon pace. If I decide to follow one of the Daniels plans, I will probably just sub easy runs or shorter tempo runs for most of the M-pace stuff.

Faster aerobic (i.e., MP) running for middle distance runners has been too long neglected. It provides a tremendous aerobic stimulus, improves lactate threshold, and, ideally, it isn't too stressful. The latter point here is key. If you aren't a marathoner, then your "MP" runs should not be your hardest workout by a long shot. They should be moderately difficult at most.

You can also just do your faster aerobic running in a more free form manner. Work it into your non-workout days when you feel like it, as a progression. Treating it as a special workout day encourages one to treat it like a prescribed pace workout, when the focus really should be on what you feel like internally. Hitting specific paces isn't really relevant when you're far from your race distance. Just think about accumulating some decent mileage at paces just below your ventilatory threshold.

Nailed it.

Just go slower on them Jon