Tyler Hamilton's book "The Secret Race" gives the best insight into doping I've ever read. It's a great book. Depressing, but very informative.
I also thought Runner's World did a good article on Eddy Hellebuyck and EPO a few years ago that was interesting.
Renato Canova wrote:
The problem of every poster in Letsrun is that NEVER they use the word TRAINING. When there is some improvement, everybody think that the training was the same, and the progress is due to doping.
The reality is very different. Looking, for example, at Jemima (I don't want to say she didn't use EPO : I want to explain something different that changed her career), we need to know that already in 2006, when she had a poor management, and a very little training, was able to run 10 km in 31'15" winning the 10 km on road in Atlanta, and showed good natural ability to recover after hard training, running in two following days two competitions of 10 km, the first on 13th May in Jersey City (2nd in 32'13"), the second the next day (14th May) in Cleveland, when she won with 32'19". All this with very little training (about 50 miles per week) both as volume and intensity. In 2007 she ran in Frankfurt marathon with the training of a junior (less than 100 km per week, and not long run) in 2:29'41", and after this quitted running, married, gave birth to a baby, and came back in 2012 training in professional way under Claudio Berardelli, immediately arriving 2nd in Boston in a tactical marathon (2:31:52) and showing good qualities. In 2013 she won Rotterdam in 2:23'27". then was 2nd in Chicago in 2:20'48", and after that time practically didn't improve anymore.
This development of career doesn't produce any suspicion, because is the normal evolution for some athlete with good talent who finally starts training in proper way.
This said, if it's acclarated she used EPO, we can't give EPO the merit of an improvement of 9' after many years of poor training.
What I want to try to explain, but here almost nobody wants to understand, is that many improvements are natural with the change of training, because in Kenya there are a lot of talented athletes who train very little, without eating enough and in poor conditions, and of course their results are of medium level only. This trend can continue for several years, till when the athlete is lucky to find some other athlete of top level inviting him in his camp for pacing himself. At this point, if the athlete has talent (for example, this is the case of Dennis Kimetto), and finally can eat two times per day, can run twice and can recover, improvement of 10 minutes from his previous PB is absolutely normal, and a 2:16 in difficult training conditions can easy become 2:06, without any doping.
The problem is the posters of Letsrun don't know the real situation of African athletes (not the top, but the hundred having talent but poor preparation and no assistance), are not able to recognize a real talent, don't know anything about the training of top athletes, and use as parameter the activity of average athletes that don't have any common point with talented African.
Of sure, a Kenyan athlete running 2:06 in 1985-1990, when also European were able to run in 2:07 (Carlos Lopes and Steve Jones), to win Olympics (Bordin 1988) and Boston (Bordin 1990), to win New York (Pizzolato 1984 and 1985, Poli 1986), didn't produce in the general mentality any suspicion of doping, because was at that time normal to see white people running under 2:10.
This guy is a famous coach and I'm a schmuck on the internet, but as a fan of the sport I really think he's in denial. Or complicit. I can't see how the image of our sport will improve.
Renato Canova wrote:
The problem of every poster in Letsrun is that NEVER they use the word TRAINING. When there is some improvement, everybody think that the training was the same, and the progress is due to doping.
The reality is very different. Looking, for example, at Jemima (I don't want to say she didn't use EPO : I want to explain something different that changed her career), we need to know that already in 2006, when she had a poor management, and a very little training, was able to run 10 km in 31'15" winning the 10 km on road in Atlanta, and showed good natural ability to recover after hard training, running in two following days two competitions of 10 km, the first on 13th May in Jersey City (2nd in 32'13"), the second the next day (14th May) in Cleveland, when she won with 32'19". All this with very little training (about 50 miles per week) both as volume and intensity. In 2007 she ran in Frankfurt marathon with the training of a junior (less than 100 km per week, and not long run) in 2:29'41", and after this quitted running, married, gave birth to a baby, and came back in 2012 training in professional way under Claudio Berardelli, immediately arriving 2nd in Boston in a tactical marathon (2:31:52) and showing good qualities. In 2013 she won Rotterdam in 2:23'27". then was 2nd in Chicago in 2:20'48", and after that time practically didn't improve anymore.
This development of career doesn't produce any suspicion, because is the normal evolution for some athlete with good talent who finally starts training in proper way.
This said, if it's acclarated she used EPO, we can't give EPO the merit of an improvement of 9' after many years of poor training.
What I want to try to explain, but here almost nobody wants to understand, is that many improvements are natural with the change of training, because in Kenya there are a lot of talented athletes who train very little, without eating enough and in poor conditions, and of course their results are of medium level only. This trend can continue for several years, till when the athlete is lucky to find some other athlete of top level inviting him in his camp for pacing himself. At this point, if the athlete has talent (for example, this is the case of Dennis Kimetto), and finally can eat two times per day, can run twice and can recover, improvement of 10 minutes from his previous PB is absolutely normal, and a 2:16 in difficult training conditions can easy become 2:06, without any doping.
The problem is the posters of Letsrun don't know the real situation of African athletes (not the top, but the hundred having talent but poor preparation and no assistance), are not able to recognize a real talent, don't know anything about the training of top athletes, and use as parameter the activity of average athletes that don't have any common point with talented African.
Of sure, a Kenyan athlete running 2:06 in 1985-1990, when also European were able to run in 2:07 (Carlos Lopes and Steve Jones), to win Olympics (Bordin 1988) and Boston (Bordin 1990), to win New York (Pizzolato 1984 and 1985, Poli 1986), didn't produce in the general mentality any suspicion of doping, because was at that time normal to see white people running under 2:10.
It might not improve her by 9 minutes but it would definitely improve her by a few minutes. Why risk her career otherwise.
If testing was the same in Ethiopia and Kenya as the UK you would see a lot more positives but the cat is already out of the bag.
3:50 was run on EPO everyone knows it except you.
well,the east germans,and soviets trained their athletes very well,and used copious amounts of drugs to help them along.in fact id say they trained their athletes better,and harder than anyone.their athletes were also very talented.marita koch was still a super talent,as were all east europeans,like kratochvilova,and the russians.they were super talented,super trained,and used super drugs.where it gets very suspicious ,is when super talented ,super trained,and super juiced athletes records get broken,by supposedly clean athletes.im from a body building background,and i can tell you almost all olympic leval sprinters use steroids.i can tell by their prominant trapezius muscles,shredded glutes,veins, round shoulders and .the shredded cut,dry look to their arms.some have the classic v shape of a steroid user.shoulders too wide,on a skinny waist.field athletes arent natural either.they train hard,and they dope harder.and for the most part,they and the top distance runners will never be caught.
Just because there are multiple theoretically plausible explanations for an improvement doesn't mean that all explanations are equally likely
Just because therefore are other plausible explanations for improvement does not mean that EPO is ineffective.
If the point is that every improvement is not due to EPO, I would agree with that.
Honest Questioner wrote:
Renato Canova wrote:So, I don't discuss if Jemima took EPO or not, and of sure I don't defend any doped athlete, but don't accept the logic that when an athlete improves dramatically is because of doping. In my experience, I had athletes as Nicholas Kemboi improving in 50 days from 28'19" to 26'30" when finally we could stay together for all the period and I could discover his real attitudes, changing his training (he was already with me before, but I never had the opportunity to see directly his true qualities), or as Philip Manyim, that in 6 months moved from being the pacer in 3000 steeple for Shaheen to being the winner in Berlin with 2:07.
You created a myth with EPO, overrating its effects, and putting it in any improvement. This is absolutely wrong, because the reality is very different.
I find this all quite fascinating. On the one hand, Coach Canova describes the compelling stories of undiscovered, undertrained raw talents: the young(ish) African phenomenons who just need proper nutrition and competent coaching to reach extraordinary levels. I don't deny these stories may be true.
On the other hand, you have the narrative of a cynical veteran athlete who has apparently reached his/her maximal potential and turns to pharmaceutical aids to reach the next level. And with 100's of thousands of dollars of prize winnings potentially at stake (and those sorts of resources at hand to get medical advantages), you don't have to look hard for motivation to cheat. You find this narrative across multiple sports and many nations.
It seems to go to the pathology of a cheater. Why would you cheat when you're experiencing that initial rise to elite status? The temptation becomes harder to resist once you've stalled -- once you realize that you HAVE all the advantages that you're going to get in terms of coaching, nutrition, support, etc. -- and you're not going to get any younger. What are you willing to pay to extend your time at the top?
I think the athletes are doping with the fancy coaches and agents and doctors all along, but too much of the prize money and other income is kept from them. But they have been around long enough to learn all about doping. So, to keep more money, they go it alone with a husband or sister, Maybe Jama Aden is fairly cheap and relatable for Africans . Maybe they are pretty amateur about rotations and then get caught. Maybe even the fancy coaches and powerful agents turn against them and scapegoat the husbands who are only trying to keep more money in the family?
Maybe it is about economics, but it's not about how expensive two meals a day in Kenya are.
trollism wrote:
She might have been on drugs to do 2:40ish in the first place.
No chance, we all know these dopers are caught because they're unlucky to test positive the one single time they use a PED.
Pure bad luck.[/quote]
Haha. Yes. My favorite excuse, " I only did it this time... " "I should have listened to Coach Canova when he told me my mind was weak." "I wonder what he has to say about EPO not working on some specific group of Kenyans?"
Times must be hard, or she has bad management to not come up with the bribe to bury this positive.
We all know Renato Canova is one of the greatest coach .
And is absolutely right when he says that hard training take these great runners
( cos thats what they are: very talented runners growing and living at altitude) to that level of performance . Yes! And is training that change your body , but of course you need a great coach that knows how to change your body with training, if you are a very talented runner. Cos without talent you can take all Peds you want but will not go anywhere.
And in every long distance runners there is something that Always happens when they are on a good hard training program.
If at the beginning of preparation for example the runner has an HTC of 46%
after 4 or 5 months at the end of the specific period in his top shape his HTC
will be likely like 39%. And this Always happens with every runner , from the amateur that run an half Marathon in 1'20" to the top runner that run in 60'.
This is a costant in every endurance athlet and especially in runners, of course
with a minimum weekly km about 80-100 for the amateur .
Canova always said that since a runner is fitter and faster when the HTC is lower , he cant understand why somebody should take EPO that has the opposite effect (increasing HTC).
Thats the problem!!! Thats what happen naturally!!! But exogen EPO is not natural for our body is an hormon . And ARTIFICIALLY changes our body!
An endurance runner has a very low HTC often about 39% .
Taking an artificial hormon like EPO is very easy to go to 45% now 45% is an absolutely normal value . But if he already was in top shape with a 39% now Do you know how does he feels when HTC change of 6 or 7 points.?
Like day and night.
Renato
its like talking to a brick wall with some of the letsrun posters. They dont use their brain properly sometimes.
Renato...thank you for taking the time with me to explain some of these issues over lunch this past summer with our friend from Austria. As one who has been to Kenya and has seen how elites and new runners train, I don't think Americans have a point of reference to understand the situation in Kenya. Social and economic barriers prevent access to the type of nutrition, medical care, and stability of life even the poorest of Americans take for granted. When running opens the door and an aspiring athlete can overcome one of these barriers, significant improvements are seen. (for Example, Litei helping Cheriyot). After spending a fair amount of time with Kenyans and some time in Kenya, I honestly conclude that Americans cannot understand being outworked by people from a developing country...it doesn't fit our picture of ourselves.
Have anyone here learned anything about what has happened in cycling? I do. Lesson I learned: There is no such thing as a miracle athlete. For years I have been suspecting the Kenyans on dope, and the reason is their poor out of competition controls. I am under the impression athletics, in particular long distance running has become the new cycling...a safe haven for dopers, elite and sub-elite who wants a piece of the action ($$$).
Renato Canova wrote:
This said, if it's acclarated she used EPO, we can't give EPO the merit of an improvement of 9' after many years of poor training.
5% off an international elite time is EPO.
So, she takes EPO and can train MUCH harder. This is not new or controversial information.
VAcoach wrote:
Renato...thank you for taking the time with me to explain some of these issues over lunch this past summer with our friend from Austria. As one who has been to Kenya and has seen how elites and new runners train, I don't think Americans have a point of reference to understand the situation in Kenya. Social and economic barriers prevent access to the type of nutrition, medical care, and stability of life even the poorest of Americans take for granted. When running opens the door and an aspiring athlete can overcome one of these barriers, significant improvements are seen. (for Example, Litei helping Cheriyot). After spending a fair amount of time with Kenyans and some time in Kenya, I honestly conclude that Americans cannot understand being outworked by people from a developing country...it doesn't fit our picture of ourselves.
Name
Well, all above can be true, but in desperate search for a better life you use desperate methods isn't it?
One one side you have poor people without any kind of bright future, on other hand you have millions of $ in prize money.
Would you take a pill WITHOUT almost any chance of being caught?
Since you spent so much time in Kenya with elite athletes maybe you can testified how many times you witnessed WADA out of competition testers on the spot, how many?
That is the problem nothing else, let them be the best in the world, but test them vigorously as any US or European athlete during whole year and not only on Diamond league meetings, AND testers MUST be from outside of Africa.
You won't see 9 minutes of improving then for sure - no strong mind will help you achieve that kind of improvement but only weak mind with strong PEDs.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that Sumgong actually tested positive for Predisnolone back in 2012, but was cleared after it was claimed that she'd had a local injection (and therefore legal) for a pre-existing injury.
And who seems to be behind this miraculous last minute redemption? Step forward Gabriel 'suitcases of cash under the bed' Dolle. One imagines so money must have changed hands here too. Is this being investigated I wonder?
pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:
Renato Canova wrote:This said, if it's acclarated she used EPO, we can't give EPO the merit of an improvement of 9' after many years of poor training.
5% off an international elite time is EPO.
So, she takes EPO and can train MUCH harder. This is not new or controversial information.
Its 6%, but Sumgong isn't elite, only Olympic champion.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Its 6%, but Sumgong isn't elite, only Olympic champion.
10/10
and a 2:16 in difficult training conditions can easy become 2:06, without any doping.I get your point, but statements like the one above make your arguments significantly weaker. That is an outrageous claim.
Renato Canova wrote:
The problem of every poster in Letsrun is that NEVER they use the word TRAINING. When there is some improvement, everybody think that the training was the same, and the progress is due to doping.
The reality is very different. Looking, for example, at Jemima (I don't want to say she didn't use EPO : I want to explain something different that changed her career), we need to know that already in 2006, when she had a poor management, and a very little training, was able to run 10 km in 31'15" winning the 10 km on road in Atlanta, and showed good natural ability to recover after hard training, running in two following days two competitions of 10 km, the first on 13th May in Jersey City (2nd in 32'13"), the second the next day (14th May) in Cleveland, when she won with 32'19". All this with very little training (about 50 miles per week) both as volume and intensity. In 2007 she ran in Frankfurt marathon with the training of a junior (less than 100 km per week, and not long run) in 2:29'41", and after this quitted running, married, gave birth to a baby, and came back in 2012 training in professional way under Claudio Berardelli, immediately arriving 2nd in Boston in a tactical marathon (2:31:52) and showing good qualities. In 2013 she won Rotterdam in 2:23'27". then was 2nd in Chicago in 2:20'48", and after that time practically didn't improve anymore.
This development of career doesn't produce any suspicion, because is the normal evolution for some athlete with good talent who finally starts training in proper way.
This said, if it's acclarated she used EPO, we can't give EPO the merit of an improvement of 9' after many years of poor training.
What I want to try to explain, but here almost nobody wants to understand, is that many improvements are natural with the change of training, because in Kenya there are a lot of talented athletes who train very little, without eating enough and in poor conditions, and of course their results are of medium level only. This trend can continue for several years, till when the athlete is lucky to find some other athlete of top level inviting him in his camp for pacing himself. At this point, if the athlete has talent (for example, this is the case of Dennis Kimetto), and finally can eat two times per day, can run twice and can recover, improvement of 10 minutes from his previous PB is absolutely normal, and a 2:16 in difficult training conditions can easy become 2:06, without any doping.
The problem is the posters of Letsrun don't know the real situation of African athletes (not the top, but the hundred having talent but poor preparation and no assistance), are not able to recognize a real talent, don't know anything about the training of top athletes, and use as parameter the activity of average athletes that don't have any common point with talented African.
Of sure, a Kenyan athlete running 2:06 in 1985-1990, when also European were able to run in 2:07 (Carlos Lopes and Steve Jones), to win Olympics (Bordin 1988) and Boston (Bordin 1990), to win New York (Pizzolato 1984 and 1985, Poli 1986), didn't produce in the general mentality any suspicion of doping, because was at that time normal to see white people running under 2:10.
Is Jemima not a slur in Kenya?
Coach Canova, I just can't consume enough of the wisdom you spew. I open myself wide to you--fill me with your knowledge. You have such a firm grasp of the hard science that I tremble at your every keystroke. Your presence here is a gift from the gods. I am satisfied and fulfilled.
Oh, a registered rekrunnner with 3 "n's". My 10 year old found this funny, but my 15 year old found it immature.What still surprises me, but shouldn't, is the obviousness that most posters attempting to lecture Renato about life in Kenya, the mentality of Kenyans, and the efficacy of EPO for elite high altitude dwelling athletes, seem unqualified to give such lectures on these subjects.There is some irony in that Renato must prove with a study that EPO does not work on East African elites, while the accusers are free to believe that EPO works without such proof.
rekrunnner wrote:
Coach Canova, I just can't consume enough of the wisdom you spew. I open myself wide to you--fill me with your knowledge. You have such a firm grasp of the hard science that I tremble at your every keystroke. Your presence here is a gift from the gods. I am satisfied and fulfilled.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year