The emperor has no clothes: Jemima Sumgong has tested positive for EPO!!!

trollism wrote:

As usual brilliant from Renato.

He tells us for years EPO doesn't work on 'elite Africans', Olympic champion gets busted and his excuse is that she's 'not elite'.

Just another non-elite with weak mind disease, just this one happens to be a dominant Olympic champion.

So....according to Mr. Canova, you don't have to be an "elite" marathoner to win an Olympic gold medal? Alrighty then...let's just eliminate the "A" standard qualifying knowing that non-elites have a legitimate shot at winning Olympic gold 😄.

Since I'm honest when I speak about any problem (to be honest for me it means that I say what I really think, not necessary that my opinion is the Bible), I confirm that the fact EPO doesn't produce any improvement in athletes born, living and training with continuity in altitude, if their training is proper, is an idea I matured after more than 30 years of experience with top athletes in altitude, before with Italians (in this case for periods of about 3 weeks, repeated several times in one season), after with Kenyans and Ethiopians, with a period with Chinese too.

I continue to read a lot of explanations, coming from what is normally written in every book of physiology. For example, the fact that EPO can raise the hematocrit : this is something everybody knows, and of course I don't need somebody reminding me this fact.

But what I don't agree, is the fact that, increasing hematocrit, we increase the level of the performance. There is not a WR for who has the higher Hct, but for who is able running fastest, and the connection with Hct doesn't exist.

I give you something to think about, if you are not blind, thinking that all you read in some book of physiology is exact at 100%.

1) Hct is the volume percentage of RBC in the blood. If you increase the total volume of blood in your body, maintaining the same number of RBC, it means that the part of plasma in the blood becomes higher, so low Hct is a "false" number, because the number of "lorries" able to transport O2 remains the same (so the ability to transport O2 is the same), but the velocity of the circulation becomes faster, because the blood has less viscosity and there are less peripheral resistances. Final effect of this situation, with lower Hct we bring MORE oxygen to the tissues.

2) The increase of the total volume of blood in top athletes, with proper training (as volume, continuity and intensity) can reach values of 25%, while the books of physiology give a maximal value of 5%. Why this ? Because NEVER the subjects who were investigated had the some talent and the some training of the top in the World.

3) For this reason, if it's true that the only scientific proof that EPO doesn't work with top athletes born and training in altitude can come giving EPO to some top athletes, already in top shape with training only (and this never can happen), for looking at the possibility of further improvement, it's also true that all the researches carried out till now NEVER regarded this type of subjects, so nobody can say WITH PROVES that EPO can add something to the best athletes belonging to the well identified category (BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE).

4) I can't deny that there are many athletes taking EPO. In the past no Kenyans (till 2010 I never heard any Kenyan athlete asking for some support, also legal) had the mentality of looking for external aids, like vitamins or supplements, but in the last 6-7 years is a fact that this mentality (common in all the world) found fertile ground in Kenya too. I was the first denouncing this fact to Isaiah Kiplagat in 2012 before Olympics, and he told me "this is not the problem for a mzungu". And I'm still more tough than the rules of IAAF : in my opinion, who takes EPO (like any other doping) not only must be banned for 4 years, but must have ALL the results of his career cancelled. But in the case of EPO, the main reason must be because in his mind he wanted to take advantage compared with clean runners, so because his ethic is AGAINST THE VALUES OF THE SPORT, not because the real advantages he can have. And the second reason is because he's too much idiot for using something that can't give real advantage in case of proper training, risking to be banned and spending money for making reach doctors and pharmacists cheater. And the third reason is because gives discredit to a full Country, and to a full Sport, creating the idea that only with doping is possible to win.

5) But the fact that many use doping ("so, why many take EPO if doesn't work ?") doesn't mean anything : they take EPO BECAUSE THEY THINK IT CAN WORK, and what they think doesn't have anything to do with the fact if really works or not. Don't forget that the "Pharma market" is the third business in the World, and many not honest doctors push for taking every kind of supplement (sometimes already over the borderline of legality) making in the mind of athletes that they can have big improvements using their proposals. In this type of cheating, the cheaters overrate the percentage of improvement, in order to sell their services at higher price (this is what happens in cycling, and in athletics with sprinters, who have by far the best market in the world under economic point of view). Typical example of this mentality is Tyson Gay : I believe he was completely against every type of doping, but what he took was a little bit over the line....

6) In the case of many women, the ruin of their career comes from their husbands. There are many cases of coaches who married their athletes, but in Kenya it's the opposite : there are husbands who, for having a role in the family of a top athlete women, decide to be the COACH without knowing anything about training an methodology. They use their wives for producing money and glory for themselves, and are the ruin of the careers of the wife. Noah Talam is the husband of Jemima, Mugo was the husband of Emily Chebet, they gave the wife every kind of substance and the wife took without any discussion. The same happened in other Countries : the coach of Aptekir (winning 1500m in London) was the husband, as the coach of Shobukhova. We need CERTIFIED COACHES, not family members without any knowledge for driving top runners.

7) The fact an athlete can move in one year from 2:28 to 2:20 in Marathon can be connected with many other factors than doping. : it's connected with a BIG INCREASE IN TRAINING. So, ALL THE RESULTS COME FROM THE LEVEL OF TRAINING. But it's true that many athletes never start a real tough training, before in their mind they think that can't be able to recover, or because they have some other business at the moment.

When somebody goes to them purposing some HELP ("so now you can recover, if you take EPO"), they change their mind, finally using the type of training that can produce results of international level. So, EPO doesn't have a DIRECT EFFECT on the performance, but the effect of SUPPORTING the change of volume and intensity, direct responsible of any improvement. This is because I speak about "weak mind", also if somebody uses my words in ironical way.

But when you have talented athletes with strong mind, accepting very hard training without thinking at the recovery (one of my preferred sentences is "don't let your mind to decide if a training is too hard or not, let your body to decide, and the most part of time you discover that at the end you are able to do something that before you considered impossible"), the level they can reach is absolutely not inferior the level reachable with doping (honestly, I think with EPO they can't reach the same level they can reach without doping, for a lot of factors, both physiological and psychological, that make different doped athletes from clean athletes).

This is what I think. And I'm still waiting for some SERIOUS RESEARCH on the top athletes in altitude. Till when there are not clarifications about the changes that training at maximal level can produce in the physiology of top champions, I NEVER WILL ACCEPT ANY CONCLUSION COMING FROM INVESTIGATIONS WITH AVERAGE PEOPLE.

Renato Canova wrote:

This is what I think. And I'm still waiting for some SERIOUS RESEARCH on the top athletes in altitude. Till when there are not clarifications about the changes that training at maximal level can produce in the physiology of top champions, I NEVER WILL ACCEPT ANY CONCLUSION COMING FROM INVESTIGATIONS WITH AVERAGE PEOPLE.

In reality it doesn't matter what evidence you see, you'll keep on blindly shouting that EPO doesn't work on top Africans.

We all know that your whole career in the sport is essentially making money out of doped up athletes (whether by you or by someone else) winning races.

Admitting EPO works wonders would slightly tarnish your credibility.

I just can't understand... The punishment for using PEDs needs to be harsh enough that will effectively prevent this from happening:

1. Ban for life. No excuses.

2. Criminal prosecution - fraud.

Whoever is responsible (IAAF, WADA, etc.) to enforce 1 and 2.

Can someone please explain me where is exactly the problem to implement it?

It sicks my stomach to see Jemima Sumgong smiling and winning the Olympics. She should be forbiden to ever step her dirty foot on a race track.

If you are still waiting for research then how can you know it does not work?

Clean Sport wrote:

I just can't understand... The punishment for using PEDs needs to be harsh enough that will effectively prevent this from happening:

1. Ban for life. No excuses.

2. Criminal prosecution - fraud.

Whoever is responsible (IAAF, WADA, etc.) to enforce 1 and 2.

Can someone please explain me where is exactly the problem to implement it?

It sicks my stomach to see Jemima Sumgong smiling and winning the Olympics. She should be forbiden to ever step her dirty foot on a race track.

It's not a good a idea to have absolutely no wiggle room at all. What if I sabbotage you by dropping testosterone into your normal massage cream and as a result, you test positive, and it can be proved (on camera or admission of guilt) that I did this? There has to be some room for understanding.

I would like to see criminal prosecutions for doping, but there are nearly 200 nations that need to pass similar laws.

And even if we do both of the above, there will still be people that try to cheat. A murder conviction will get you a life sentence or a lethal injection and yet people still committ murder on a daily basis. But we don't throw our hands up and give up on trying to stop it.

ukathleticcoach wrote:

If you are still waiting for research then how can you know it does not work?

He has written that he knows how good Shaheen and Nicholas Kemboi were without using drugs of any kind and he can't imagine that something like EPO could have made them run any faster. It's not scientific, but I get why he thinks that.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

ukathleticcoach wrote:

If you are still waiting for research then how can you know it does not work?

He has written that he knows how good Shaheen and Nicholas Kemboi were without using drugs of any kind and he can't imagine that something like EPO could have made them run any faster. It's not scientific, but I get why he thinks that.

Wonder if he knew what that Qatari-Kenyan was up to 24 hours a day.

You can't condemn someone just because they're from a cheating country, but when they're from two - that's worrying.

I don't know about distance running, but I know about performance, doping, and the scientific literature.

Canova is moron #1, and Wigand is moron #2. We went through this YEARS ago, when I finally had to pull a study that Wigand cited, showing that it didn't at all say what he thought it might say, because he didn't even read the text.

Classic morons.

I have been telling you guys that everybody at the top of the sprint world has been using for years, and that everybody 9.80 or below has used. They have all been caught except for Bolt, who is untouchable.

I have a specific basis for belief in the sprints, but no equivalent one in distance...but I do suspect that it is the same party, with a different cocktail.

You guys will hopefully learn to still enjoy the performances, while still calling out the obvious cheats, and recognizing that their cheating IS obvious. It's not common-sense, all it requires is to hold denial is abeyance.

Track should live. Enjoy the performances of kids, especially--I mean really young ones who just love to compete. After that, it's open season.

Down goes Sumgong! Down goes Sumgong! Down goes Sumgong!

I can see how the pseudoscientific BS that RC spouts like a fountain goes over well in Kenya. His conviction compensates for lack of rational capacity. It's like looking into the mind of a 17th-century "scientist".

Renato Canova wrote:

Since I'm honest when I speak about any problem ...

This is what I think. And I'm still waiting for some SERIOUS RESEARCH on the top athletes in altitude. Till when there are not clarifications about the changes that training at maximal level can produce in the physiology of top champions, I NEVER WILL ACCEPT ANY CONCLUSION COMING FROM INVESTIGATIONS WITH AVERAGE PEOPLE.

Mr. Canova,

I really respect that you are willing to come onto a common discussion board and give your opinion, admitting what you know and don't know.

I wonder about something though and whether you have considered it. The group of people for whom EPO doesn't really work as anything but a placebo seems to be getting very small. So small, in fact, that you seem to be designating Sumgong and Rita Jeptoo as "average".

So, if we combine the probability of being one of the very top potential runners, with the probability of them trying to become long distance runners, and the probability of them having the correct training-- what are the odds of this? I worry that it may be getting into the impossible category.

We are talking about a case where an Olympic champion has been caught using EPO. If it doesn't work, then why was she using it?

All your uninformed pseudoscience is not made true by years of coaching experience, and it fails the common sense when plainly elite athletes are in fact using EPO. They wouldn't take the risk if it weren't worth it.

trollism wrote:

Jeff Wigand wrote:

He has written that he knows how good Shaheen and Nicholas Kemboi were without using drugs of any kind and he can't imagine that something like EPO could have made them run any faster. It's not scientific, but I get why he thinks that.

Wonder if he knew what that Qatari-Kenyan was up to 24 hours a day.

That's a fair point. How well can you really know someone? There are people in what look to be normal marriages who find out that their spouse is a serial cheater or rapist. But in the absence of any evidence of that, what are we supposed to believe?

Here the only moron are you, who wants to speak about something that you admit not to know...

Maybe you have the basis for thinking every sprinter under 9.80 is doped. I don't question your statement, because I don't have your basis in that field.

But I have the basis (not for hearing from somebody else, but as direct coach of these athletes) for telling that the most part of middle runners from Kenya who are in top 20 in the World achieved their results without any external help, since several of them were with me (for example, I had 9 athletes between 26'30" in 10000m and 26'55", and nobody asked for some support).

Moron is who insults other people without knowing. I respected in the past your opinions when you spoke about sprint, but now I understand you are an idiot.

Sprintgeezer, you are the court jester of armchair quarterbacks.

Trollism, when you speak about "essentially making money out of doped up athletes", you speak about somebody that is very far from myself.

If you want to know the relation between Renato Canova, doping and money, ask to Kenyan athletes before showing your stupidity and your not honesty, insulting without knowing (typical behavior of idiot people).

Fat = Flavor wrote:

I can see how the pseudoscientific BS that RC spouts like a fountain goes over well in Kenya. His conviction compensates for lack of rational capacity. It's like looking into the mind of a 17th-century "scientist".

Exactly! Wonderful! Galileo (1564-1642) looks like one of the first to have ushered in any kind of rigorous scientific experimentalism, although certainly almost nobody of his time followed suit.

It has been a hard-won victory, and we must work to maintain it, in the face of a slack-jawed and ignorant world. Try reading some early thermodynamic treatise, it's difficult because they were groping in the dark.

Same as Canova does. It's amazing how motivated people can be by things so base as greed, fame, and the adulation of the masses.

Here's the thing, Canova--I see absolutely no reason to give you the benefit of the doubt, including your motivations.

I don't know you personally, so I could see how you might honestly believe what you're saying--therefore I don't call you a liar.

There are only 2 alternatives--you understand that what you are saying is wrong and that it is wrong of you to say it, which would make you a liar--or, you actually believe what you are saying, which makes you a moron.

Take your pick, Canova. You know, even I have admitted I was wrong at some points in life. But maybe you're not as smart as I am. :)

If you really are as dense as it would require for you to act as you're acting, I congratulate you for having found a population that is even more dense than you are, to buy your snake oil.

You know how many honest competitors you, and your system, are ripping off? Are denying even the opportunity to compete? If you say that you are taking only those who would be the best anyway and just making them even better than they would normally be, I would require proof of such a proposition.

Which of course you could not provide.

Did you read the paper that Wigand cited, and that I used to destroy him some years ago?

“We are unable to make any further comments in regard to the matter at this point and we shall issue a comprehensive statement once the process is complete,” said the statement from AK.

When the B test comes up negative, I hope the IAAF / London Marathon are sued for the $million they're stealing from her.