Why I hate the stock market. Unprofitable Tesla is now worth more than profitable Ford which sells 28 x as many cars

TheGreatPlantini wrote:

This seems relevant to this discussion:

"Traders short selling Tesla's (TSLA.O) soaring stock have lost $3.7 billion this year, eclipsing the combined losses of traders shorting Apple (AAPL.O), Amazon.com (AMZN.O) and Netflix (NFLX.O)."

Shorts mostly lose.... Until they win big. The average returns over large spans of time are ... average... Some shorts are a part of a complex arbitrage scheme, so it's hard to know what's sentiment and what is "insurance."

It's been a tough year for the bears. Leading indicators and prior expansion history suggest the Wall Street party is at some kind of peak. I certainly don't know if it is or not.

It's important to remember when it comes to valuations, there is an aggregate emotional component to most valuation. It is certainly true with a stock like an Amazon or Apple.

It just like collectables, it's only worth what people are will to pay for it.

TSLA had very good potential and now seems to be showing not bad results at stock market ( according to https://www.newsquantified.com/stock-quote/TSLA ). I don't know why so many people dislike it's concept, I personally like everything besides high price of the cars.

Electric Cold Rail Cars are the future and will replace fixed battery electric cars

DaleCooper wrote:

TSLA had very good potential and now seems to be showing not bad results at stock market ( according to

https://www.newsquantified.com/stock-quote/TSLA

). I don't know why so many people dislike it's concept, I personally like everything besides high price of the cars.

The people who dislike the concept are climate change deniers for the most part. They transfer their dislike to everything Musk does, including SpaceX - which you think they would love since SpaceX saves a lot of tax dollars by having reduced launch costs to about a third of what the government used to pay.

Bobby1 wrote:

It just like collectables, it's only worth what people are will to pay for it.

Not really.....Rojo just always seems to be unable to grasp concepts. It's like we have our own Trump running letsrun.com.....

Tesla is growing fast (75% revenue growth last year, and 125% growth YTD this year, next year will probably be even higher), ford is not (grew around 1.5% revenue wise last year and)....there's basically no potential growth for ford. Tesla on the other hand is growing very fast and hasn't even scratched the surface yet. They just launched their roof, they just launched their mass market car, they are talking about numerous other vehicles they plan to launch in the future. Tesla is being sunk profit wise and cash-flow wise by massive investments in their future which they won't start to realize until they actually sell the cars and batteries

Discussing ford selling 28X as many cars when everyone knows that gap is about to drastically change is extremely ignorant. Does Ford sell 28X as many luxury cars sedans or SUV's? That's the only market Tesla have targeted before their recent launch.

And Rojo doesn't understand anything about Tesla's electric competitors. They all suck for one main reason....without the fast charging tesla stations, they are basically useless for any long trip. Nobody else has the infrastructure built out and nobody will wait for hours at a rest stop to charge up their car. Tesla's charging is the perfect time for a lunch break. It's similar to Iphone vs. droid. Doesn't matter if the car has better specs or has the specs first if it doesn't function well. Tesla sells the car and owns the charging network.

All I can say is don't take advice from Rojo.....

Short term time horizon: stock market = Vegas

Long term index funds is where it's at.

The problem is that you don't understand companies or the market. You certainly don't understand Tesla.

You have no idea how to value a company. For people like you, I suggest simply thinking about market behavior. The actual dynamics of pricing are way beyond your understanding. You shouldn't even trade on technicals.

What you should do is index and then shut your piehole. You're welcome. I just saved you more money than you will ever make pretending to know anything about pricing models.

/truth

Mrr82 wrote:

Rojo just always seems to be unable to grasp concepts.

This seems to be a common thing.

Tesla will have the monopoly for cars on Mars. your ROI will start in 2050.

DaleGribble wrote:

DaleCooper wrote:

TSLA had very good potential and now seems to be showing not bad results at stock market ( according to

https://www.newsquantified.com/stock-quote/TSLA

). I don't know why so many people dislike it's concept, I personally like everything besides high price of the cars.

The people who dislike the concept are climate change deniers for the most part. They transfer their dislike to everything Musk does, including SpaceX - which you think they would love since SpaceX saves a lot of tax dollars by having reduced launch costs to about a third of what the government used to pay.

SpaceX may save some govt dollars but Tesla sure as hell has cost us a fortune in subsidies! Govt needs to get completely out of that industry to see how things really shake out in the real world.

future alien wrote:

Tesla will have the monopoly for cars on Mars. your ROI will start in 2050.

There is an old saying, "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"

different perspective wrote:

DaleGribble wrote:

The people who dislike the concept are climate change deniers for the most part. They transfer their dislike to everything Musk does, including SpaceX - which you think they would love since SpaceX saves a lot of tax dollars by having reduced launch costs to about a third of what the government used to pay.

SpaceX may save some govt dollars but Tesla sure as hell has cost us a fortune in subsidies! Govt needs to get completely out of that industry to see how things really shake out in the real world.

How much exactly has it cost us? Please be specific and compare to the the amount of subsidies other industries get. In particular, how does it compare to the ethanol subsidy? And don't forget to include the increased cost of food because acreage was being used to grow corn for fuel rather than food. And please also factor in the decrease in mileage using part ethanol rather than just gasoline. And the damage it causes to engines. And don't forget that it takes a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of ethanol. Other than that, in sure you have a coherent, unbiased, fact based opinion

different perspective wrote:

DaleGribble wrote:

The people who dislike the concept are climate change deniers for the most part. They transfer their dislike to everything Musk does, including SpaceX - which you think they would love since SpaceX saves a lot of tax dollars by having reduced launch costs to about a third of what the government used to pay.

SpaceX may save some govt dollars but Tesla sure as hell has cost us a fortune in subsidies! Govt needs to get completely out of that industry to see how things really shake out in the real world.

The micro-satellite I10 Kg) industry which does not need the outrageously expensive liquid fuel 1st stage is killing traditional satellites (1000 Kg).

JRRJRJ wrote:

The problem is that you don't understand companies or the market. You certainly don't understand Tesla.

You have no idea how to value a company. For people like you, I suggest simply thinking about market behavior. The actual dynamics of pricing are way beyond your understanding. You shouldn't even trade on technicals.

What you should do is index and then shut your piehole. You're welcome. I just saved you more money than you will ever make pretending to know anything about pricing models.

/truth

You are the poster child for fools that actually think there is some value to a stock that doesn't even have a PE ratio. Rojo instincts are correct, TSLA is as close to a Ponzi scheme as any current stock for sale. By the way each share trade over $300 and loses $4.52 a share, while selling only 170,000 cars.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

JRRJRJ wrote:

The problem is that you don't understand companies or the market. You certainly don't understand Tesla.

You have no idea how to value a company. For people like you, I suggest simply thinking about market behavior. The actual dynamics of pricing are way beyond your understanding. You shouldn't even trade on technicals.

What you should do is index and then shut your piehole. You're welcome. I just saved you more money than you will ever make pretending to know anything about pricing models.

/truth

You are the poster child for fools that actually think there is some value to a stock that doesn't even have a PE ratio. Rojo instincts are correct, TSLA is as close to a Ponzi scheme as any current stock for sale. By the way each share trade over $300 and loses $4.52 a share, while selling only 170,000 cars.

Foolish math. Rojo doesn't have instincts....he just stinks at almost everything. When you exclude their massive investment in R&D they are profitable. Once they have a full year of Model3 sales and roof sales, it'll dwarf their R&D and their profit will go way up. Apple for example has 5% of revenue into R&D and 12.5% of their GM. Tesla has 12% of their revenue and >50% of their GM into R&D. They are losing money because they are betting on their future....one with 500k pre-orders already and numerous other releases in the pipeline.

When you exclude their 4b increase in fixed assets last year they had a massive increase in cash even excluding their financing. Huge investments they are waiting to see benefit from.

Anyone with a brain can see they are only losing money and cash because they are scaling up at an astronomical rate and haven't received the benefit of it yet.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

JRRJRJ wrote:

The problem is that you don't understand companies or the market. You certainly don't understand Tesla.

You have no idea how to value a company. For people like you, I suggest simply thinking about market behavior. The actual dynamics of pricing are way beyond your understanding. You shouldn't even trade on technicals.

What you should do is index and then shut your piehole. You're welcome. I just saved you more money than you will ever make pretending to know anything about pricing models.

/truth

You are the poster child for fools that actually think there is some value to a stock that doesn't even have a PE ratio. Rojo instincts are correct, TSLA is as close to a Ponzi scheme as any current stock for sale. By the way each share trade over $300 and loses $4.52 a share, while selling only 170,000 cars.

So polluting one thread with your profound stupidity wasn't enough for you, huh?

Mrr82 wrote:

And Rojo doesn't understand anything about Tesla's electric competitors. They all suck for one main reason....without the fast charging tesla stations, they are basically useless for any long trip. Nobody else has the infrastructure built out and nobody will wait for hours at a rest stop to charge up their car. Tesla's charging is the perfect time for a lunch break. It's similar to Iphone vs. droid. Doesn't matter if the car has better specs or has the specs first if it doesn't function well. Tesla sells the car and owns the charging network.

All I can say is don't take advice from Rojo.....

Is it really hard for every gas station to have a charging station?

I'm not doubting all cars - or almost all- will be electric in 30 years. And Tesla is a big brand. And if they become a cult like Appple then they'll justify their valuation.

But I just think it's much more likely that Ford will be able to produce millions of electric cars in 10 years than Tesla. Of course, Tesla has the advantage in that it only does a few models.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

You are the poster child for fools that actually think there is some value to a stock that doesn't even have a PE ratio. Rojo instincts are correct, TSLA is as close to a Ponzi scheme as any current stock for sale. By the way each share trade over $300 and loses $4.52 a share, while selling only 170,000 cars.

Well now i'll defend the other guy. What about AMZN? Weren't they unprofitable and without a PE ratio forever? When did AMZN become profitable?