What are 400/800 guys doing that 800/1500 guys aren't?

More work at faster speeds, sessions like Billat 30/30 for endurance instead of classic long repeats such as 1k or mile. Longer rest when doing track work. Doubles instead of singles. More power work like sprints, hill sprints, jump strength or lifting.

Three command starts and blocks

Uh, running faster...

racing 400s more often

running 800s faster

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Guys like Symmonds could never go faster than 47 in an open 400 and guys like Rudisha would struggle at 1500m.

Based on what? Rudisha does some serious mileage. I think someone said he trains with Kipchoge. Rudisha in peak 800m shape could probably run around 3:30 and 13:45-14:10. He is just a better, speedier version of Sebastian Coe who was a 45/46, 3:29, 13:30 guy. If Rudisha actually trained for distance, then he would be even faster at the distance events (and slower at the sprinting).

Rudisha PB 400m 45.50

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

...guys like Rudisha would struggle at 1500m.

If by struggle you mean sub 3:30, then yes, he would struggle. Man he would suck at 15. If he trained for it, he could come very close to breaking the WR in the 15.

Fiff Teen wrote:

If by struggle you mean sub 3:30, then yes, he would struggle. Man he would suck at 15. If he trained for it, he could come very close to breaking the WR in the 15.

No, you are entering "Wariner should run 800m" territory. There is a reason Rudisha has not times listed for 1500m

Malemute Kid wrote:

Fiff Teen wrote:

If by struggle you mean sub 3:30, then yes, he would struggle. Man he would suck at 15. If he trained for it, he could come very close to breaking the WR in the 15.

No, you are entering "Wariner should run 800m" territory. There is a reason Rudisha has not times listed for 1500m

*No times

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

The reason guys are 400/800 or 800/1500 depends a lot on their muscle fiber makeup and background growing up. Guys like Symmonds could never go faster than 47 in an open 400 and guys like Rudisha would struggle at 1500m.

Ignoring physiological differences, how does the training differ between a speed based and an enduranced based 800 guy? The 400/800 guy would likely do less mileage, but even this isn't always true considering Murphy does roughly 50-60mpw, Symmonds does 50-60mpw, yet Solomon does close to 80 miles a week in the off season. So it seems mileage is not the main factor or differences in these types of athletes.

Does anyone have any insight on some specific things that 400/800 guys focus on more compared to 800/1500 guys? Just looking for a discussion about training

My passion for decades has been running. How do you know all of the above is true? Perhaps all of them do periodization where they have high mileage megacycles and lower mileage megacycles depending on the time of the year.

I believe Rudisha once said in an interview that 1500 is the longest distance he'd be willing to do.

What 4/8 guys do on my team as opposed to me at 800/mile boils down to:

Less mileage. On days that I do more distance oriented work (mileage or longer repeats) they usually do 400 specific work. Sometimes even block starts.

Murphy runs a 30:13 10k in XC bro

Malemute Kid wrote:

No, you are entering "Wariner should run 800m" territory. There is a reason Rudisha has not times listed for 1500m

I would agree with you except that the aerobic/anaerobic energy profiles for the 8/15 are much more similar than the 4/8. It's difficult to be great at both 4 & 8. It's not as difficult to be great at both 8 & 15.

This thread has some stuff about Marcello Fiasconaro (first guy to break 1:44 and was a 400/800 guy) and his training:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=5286240&thread=5285642#5286240

Exclusively running the 400m and 800m during races rather than exclusively running the 800m and 1500m in races.

Fast Twitcher wrote:

More work at faster speeds, sessions like Billat 30/30 for endurance instead of classic long repeats such as 1k or mile. Longer rest when doing track work. Doubles instead of singles. More power work like sprints, hill sprints, jump strength or lifting.

I'll add block starts/work on exploding out of the blocks for 400 guys.

You would have gotten better response but you made a couple statements as fact without evidence: 1) Nick Symmonds was a 800 meter runner. He was not a 400 meter athlete nor was he 1500 meter athlete. Symmonds was a top 100 800 meter person.

Guys like Rudisha ... . What does that mean? There is no evidence Rudisha would struggle in 1500 meters. As for 400 meters, Rudisha is relatively good at 400 meters. He may be a top twenty-five Kenyan 400 meter man.

Muscle fibers: Differences in human muscle fibers are slight. The reason one person cannot run a sub-90 second 400 meters and why someone else runs sub-55 seconds 400 meters is not necessarily a muscle fiber issue. Was Miruts Yifter, a sub-49 second 400 meter man fast twitch or slow twitch? Is Eliud Kipchoge, with his sub 3:34 1500 meters fast twitch or slow twitch? Running fast, 100 meters is powerful strength and neuromuscular coordination. Running Marathon fast, sub-2:08 is based on sub-4:10 one mile ability which is a combination of speed, VO2 max and anaerobic fitness and pain tolerance. I used 100 meters and Marathon as extreme examples. Obviously, the difference between 400 meters and 1500 meters are more subtle.

Trackbot! PRs David Rudisha

Trackbot! PRs Nick Symmonds

PRs for David Rudisha:

400 m (Outdoor): 45.50 on 27 Feb 2010

600 m (Outdoor): 1:13.10    AR on 5 Jun 2016

500 m road (Outdoor): 57.69 on 10 Sep 2016

800 m (Outdoor): 1:40.91    WR on 9 Aug 2012

PRs for Nick Symmonds:

400 m (Outdoor): 48.53 on 8 Aug 2015

600 m (Outdoor): 1:14.47 on 15 Jun 2008

600 m (Indoor): 1:16.89 on 16 Feb 2013

800 m (Outdoor): 1:42.95 on 9 Aug 2012

800 m (Indoor): 1:46.48 on 9 Mar 2008

1000 m (Outdoor): 2:16.35 on 3 Jul 2010

1000 m (Indoor): 2:18.87 on 15 Feb 2014

1500 m (Outdoor): 3:34.55 on 19 Jul 2013

One Mile (Outdoor): 3:59.68 on 6 Jun 2015

One Mile (Indoor): 3:56.72 OT on 13 Jan 2007

Mile, road (Outdoor): 4:00.5h on 21 Sep 2008

4 x 800 m (Indoor): 7:18.52 on 8 Feb 2014

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