From the Milrose fan guide -
Don’t forget about David Torrence, either. Though he’ll have had some travel to deal with (he ran 3:39 in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Saturday), he’s the American record holder in this event (2:16.76) — even though he now represents Peru
Once you decide that you no longer want to represent that country, why should you still have the honor of holding that countries national record?
GPS Badger wrote:
Once you decide that you no longer want to represent that country, why should you still have the honor of holding that countries national record?
Because a national record is a concrete achievement, not some kind of subjective award that is bestowed based on how people feel about you.
Who is David Torrence?
Gauss and Newton and Perlman wrote:
Who is David Torrence?
He is the the US record holder for the men's indoor 1000m run.
objective achievement wrote:
GPS Badger wrote:Once you decide that you no longer want to represent that country, why should you still have the honor of holding that countries national record?
Because a national record is a concrete achievement, not some kind of subjective award that is bestowed based on how people feel about you.
It is the best mark from the country's citizens, so the mark follows all of the country's citizens around, rather than any one person. Think of it from the country's perspective, where you want to capture the best mark, but don't care who it is.
Lagat has the 1500m NR for both Kenya and the US right now.
Have a problem with that?
Should Kiprop now be the Kenyan record holder?
Yes - I don't think it is right to have one athlete holding a NR for multiple countries. I have nothing against an athlete choosing to represent another country (even if they are doing it for the money), but once you make that choice, you lose that NR. It's like an ex-wife keeping your surname after you are divorced...strange.
Wilson Kipketer didn't hold the Kenyan 800m record while he wasn't able to compete for Denmark (he ran 1:41.83 in 1996 before be became a full Danish citizen - Kenyan record was at that stage 1:42.33). I know he competed for Denmark in 1995, but he was still travelling on a Kenyan passport.
zzzz wrote:
objective achievement wrote:Because a national record is a concrete achievement, not some kind of subjective award that is bestowed based on how people feel about you.
It is the best mark from the country's citizens, so the mark follows all of the country's citizens around, rather than any one person. Think of it from the country's perspective, where you want to capture the best mark, but don't care who it is.
Should you lose all records and results when you die?
No wrote:
zzzz wrote:It is the best mark from the country's citizens, so the mark follows all of the country's citizens around, rather than any one person. Think of it from the country's perspective, where you want to capture the best mark, but don't care who it is.
Should you lose all records and results when you die?
No, and nothing I wrote implied that.
GPS Badger wrote:
From the Milrose fan guide -
Don’t forget about David Torrence, either. Though he’ll have had some travel to deal with (he ran 3:39 in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Saturday), he’s the American record holder in this event (2:16.76) — even though he now represents Peru
Once you decide that you no longer want to represent that country, why should you still have the honor of holding that countries national record?
Think of it like this
If you do lose the NR from the country you previously ran for, you still ran the time so shouldn't you get credit for something? Okay so we say David Torrence now has the NR for Peuto Rico in the indoor 1k, but he didn't even represent them while he ran it and it wouldn't be fair to the previous NR holder. It's all about representation. He represented US during his indoor 1k record. In my eyes, it's no different than Qatar buying East Africans. Yes, the example is a little stretched, but you still have atheltes who are going to have the record because they REPRESENTED the country at the time.
GPS Badger wrote:
Yes - I don't think it is right to have one athlete holding a NR for multiple countries. I have nothing against an athlete choosing to represent another country (even if they are doing it for the money), but once you make that choice, you lose that NR. It's like an ex-wife keeping your surname after you are divorced...strange.
Wilson Kipketer didn't hold the Kenyan 800m record while he wasn't able to compete for Denmark (he ran 1:41.83 in 1996 before be became a full Danish citizen - Kenyan record was at that stage 1:42.33). I know he competed for Denmark in 1995, but he was still travelling on a Kenyan passport.
This ^ is so dumb that has been picked up and registered as an earthquake by the US Geological Service.
A NR is the best mark achieved by a nation's citizen. Torrence set the mark while an American citizen. What he does afterward is completely irrelevant.
Please stop being so stupid. It is painful to witness.
New rule:
If you switch nationalities, you lose the NR but the country pays you back any taxes you paid during the record year. Basically both sides act as though that year of citizenship never existed and both get something good from it.
objective achievement wrote:
GPS Badger wrote:Once you decide that you no longer want to represent that country, why should you still have the honor of holding that countries national record?
Because a national record is a concrete achievement, not some kind of subjective award that is bestowed based on how people feel about you.
If they are so concrete, why do we take them away from known drug cheats? Not so concrete now huh? So they ARE bestowed based on how people feel about you.......
GPS Badger wrote:
Yes - I don't think it is right to have one athlete holding a NR for multiple countries. I have nothing against an athlete choosing to represent another country (even if they are doing it for the money), but once you make that choice, you lose that NR. It's like an ex-wife keeping your surname after you are divorced...strange.
Wilson Kipketer didn't hold the Kenyan 800m record while he wasn't able to compete for Denmark (he ran 1:41.83 in 1996 before be became a full Danish citizen - Kenyan record was at that stage 1:42.33). I know he competed for Denmark in 1995, but he was still travelling on a Kenyan passport.
Like you said, Kipketer had competed for Denmark in 1995.
He did not represent Kenya in any form when he ran in 1996, so it makes sense that his times at the time would not be a Kenyan record.
He never had the Kenyan record to give up.
Lagat was clearly a Kenyan representing Kenya in 2001 when he ran 2:26 low.
Lagat was the fastest Kenyan ever. Leaving the country didn't change that.
He is also the fastest American ever.
The real problem with Lagat is that he was technically an American when he ran 3:27 in 2004, but he did not represent the US at the time and didn't apply for the AR, which is part of the deal.
Now, he also didn't and couldn't represent the US in 2005 when he ran the current American Record of 3:29.30.
But he was a US citizen who applied to ratify the record at the time.
He has actually never run faster than 3:32 since first representing the US in 2007.
So Sydney Maree has the fastest 1500m time by an American who had represented the US.
While Centro II is the fastest US born 1500m runner.
Star wrote:
GPS Badger wrote:Yes - I don't think it is right to have one athlete holding a NR for multiple countries. I have nothing against an athlete choosing to represent another country (even if they are doing it for the money), but once you make that choice, you lose that NR. It's like an ex-wife keeping your surname after you are divorced...strange.
Wilson Kipketer didn't hold the Kenyan 800m record while he wasn't able to compete for Denmark (he ran 1:41.83 in 1996 before be became a full Danish citizen - Kenyan record was at that stage 1:42.33). I know he competed for Denmark in 1995, but he was still travelling on a Kenyan passport.
Like you said, Kipketer had competed for Denmark in 1995.
He did not represent Kenya in any form when he ran in 1996, so it makes sense that his times at the time would not be a Kenyan record.
He never had the Kenyan record to give up.
Lagat was clearly a Kenyan representing Kenya in 2001 when he ran 2:26 low.
Lagat was the fastest Kenyan ever. Leaving the country didn't change that.
He is also the fastest American ever.
The real problem with Lagat is that he was technically an American when he ran 3:27 in 2004, but he did not represent the US at the time and didn't apply for the AR, which is part of the deal.
Now, he also didn't and couldn't represent the US in 2005 when he ran the current American Record of 3:29.30.
But he was a US citizen who applied to ratify the record at the time.
He has actually never run faster than 3:32 since first representing the US in 2007.
So Sydney Maree has the fastest 1500m time by an American who had represented the US.
While Centro II is the fastest US born 1500m runner.
Ok, so say that I have dual citizenship.
My father is American, and my mother is German.
If I am running at a Diamond League race, wearing my New Balance kit, and I run a 5000 meter time that would be an American record, and a German record, which would it be.?
I am not running in a meet that designates athletes by county, like the Olympics or WC.
Alternate Reality wrote:
Ok, so say that I have dual citizenship.
My father is American, and my mother is German.
If I am running
Expect a call from Jurgen Klinsmann very soon
I don't know about this, but I do know I would be pretty upset if some Kenyan moved here and took my AMERICAN record away (Solinsky's 5000, for example).
Whooty wrote:
objective achievement wrote:Because a national record is a concrete achievement, not some kind of subjective award that is bestowed based on how people feel about you.
If they are so concrete, why do we take them away from known drug cheats? Not so concrete now huh? So they ARE bestowed based on how people feel about you.......
This is really stupid. Erasing a performance when it is conclusively shown that someone was actively cheating during said performance is in no way analogous to taking a legitimate record because of something that happened after the record was set.
I mean, I wouldn't take away Lagat's 3:26 Kenyan record in the 1500 from 2001 just because he runs for the US.
zzzz wrote:
No wrote:Should you lose all records and results when you die?
No, and nothing I wrote implied that.
When you die you are no longer a citizen.
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