Richmond Marathon or NYC Marathon?

outsiderunner wrote:

Per the Garmin, my half marathon time was 1:24:51, and I ran 13.34 miles for the race. I started the watch as I went over the timing mats.

I'm confused...How did your watch say sub 1:25 when the chip said 1:26:xx?

Or you mean if you trust your GPS data while surround by interference causing tall buildings that failed you last fall in a marathon instead of the USATF certified measurement?

Man, David S. Pumpkins took me in hook, line, and sinker! I feel like a fool, but I was laughing about the dentist thing when I read it, thinking that outsiderunner actually said it, so maybe it wasn't so far off! :)

Great job, outsiderunner! Sounds like you prevailed against the congestion, hills, and all. You are very fortunate to have found your inspiration at mile ten to make those last 3 miles fly by. ;)

Good luck with your training!!!

outsiderunner wrote:

I have learned a lot from this experience. To go in on low mileage and perform well was very illuminating. Before the 40-mile and 48-mile weeks here recently, I had averaged only 23 mpw in the previous eight or nine weeks. Tapered to 36 miles two weeks prior, and ran three times for 18 miles before this Sunday. Indeed, being rested prior to the race is very, very important.

Again, congratulations, outsiderunner. I'm sure that Smoove is correct that your previous base of volume and intensity were key, but I also strongly agree with you that being well-rested is of critical importance (and often overlooked).

When training is going well, I think a lot of folks are tempted to just keep at it until way too close to race day. I am currently (roughly) following an old Pfitzinger plan, and I think the final weeks on his schedule are way too aggressive, especially for an older runner.

I am reminded of a very talented woman who was posting on the over-50 training thread a few years ago. She was also following a Pfitzinger marathon plan, running some of the highest mileage of anyone on the thread ... consistently over 80 miles a week, seldom taking a day off. Every indication pointed to a great marathon.

Two weeks out from the NYC, she completed a 65-mile week, which included a 17-mile run on Saturday and a 10K "tune-up" race on Sunday. Yes, 65 miles was reduced mileage, but still too much, I would argue. Particularly with the race effort (and an 800-repeat workout earlier in the week).

On race day, she struggled toward the end, and missed her goal by 7 minutes. Way short of what her training would have predicted.

The next year, she trained for the Dallas Marathon, again posting big mileage and impressive workouts. Again, she had a Pfitzinger-type three-week taper, but I think still too much volume and intensity when REST should have been the main ingredient (especially as an over-50 runner). For the week ending seven days out from the marathon, she had no days off, and ran two track workouts. "Only" 54 miles, but that close to the race, why even that much?

On race day, even by mile 9, she described her legs as "not popping," but held goal pace to 22. As at NYC, however, she struggled the last four miles, this time missing her goal by 20 minutes. After following her training for week after week, and knowing the dedication and sacrifice it must take to train at the level and consistency, I really felt her disappointment at the final results. (I realize I'm focusing on just one possible factor, but even as I first read her weekly logs I felt that there wasn't enough scheduled rest, especially during the last few weeks).

Rest and recovery! It SHOULD be the easiest part of training! But can be such a struggle ...

Sorry for the long-winded digression! Anyway, I think your idea of building a base with easy, high-mileage is a good one. But I know your love for fast running, and the exhilarating feeling of flying down the road. Be careful! Stay healthy! BTW, I have a half marathon in a few weeks ... I will be VERY happy to get within even a few minutes of your NYC time.

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

outsiderunner wrote:

Per the Garmin, my half marathon time was 1:24:51, and I ran 13.34 miles for the race. I started the watch as I went over the timing mats.

I'm confused...How did your watch say sub 1:25 when the chip said 1:26:xx?

Or you mean if you trust your GPS data while surround by interference causing tall buildings that failed you last fall in a marathon instead of the USATF certified measurement?

Nothing implied here, DSP. The official time is my official result. In evaluating how things went, the only thing I gleaned in this regard is that the 13.34 miles I ran probably reflects the weaving I did in the congested first six miles of the race. In my other half marathon, my watch read 13.22 when done.

This is a FANTASTIC post, Allen1959--thank you very much!

All along, since NYCM and NCR, I have been thinking EXACTLY what your story here demonstrates. Rest, especially for an older runner, is very, very important, and that is why I have said so in my comments above. This is my most significant lesson coming out of this experience.

I was not rested going into NYC last fall, and I am sure now that it must have had an impact. Higher mileage is fine, but I do not want it to be anywhere near my goal race. This is what I was thinking prior to the NYC Half (as I was feeling good and rested), and the results in the race have confirmed it for me.

Yes, I do like to run fast, and so I need to curb myself before a goal race. Rest--meaning days off--is very important for us older guys and gals. I had the sense, all along, that I should run only sparingly prior to the race, and it seems to have been the right formula.

All the best to you, Allen1959, and thank you for your support throughout this process.

You bet, Toadlips. I needed a boost in the last three miles or so, and I am glad I found it.

Good luck with your training. Also, I appreciate what you said about running NYC with me in the fall. I think I am likely to stick with my plan to run a faster course closer to home, but I believe the door is closed for me to run NYC 2017, anyway. So, that is your plan--a sub-3:00 attempt in NYC this fall?

All the best...

Sounds like with all that weaving and added distance converts to about a 1:23:30. Congrats that's a fantastic time.

East sub 3 shape right now.

Your plan to run a faster course close to home makes complete sense. That's exactly what I did last year, and I was able to snag a sub-3 by the skin of my teeth. A tough course like NYC would have definitely put me over the edge!! I'm hoping to springboard off of last year's training to get in even better shape for NYC. All of this remains to be seen, of course! I'll be following Jack Daniels' 2Q program -- haven't decided on peak mileage yet, but it'll probably be between 70 & 80.

Last Fall was my first time ever using a "real" marathon training plan. Previously, I had relied on fast-finish 20 milers and my own intuition to guide me. It worked for the 3:10 I used to qualify for Boston, but the only reason it worked is because that pace was somewhere around 7:15, and I could run in the 7:30s practically all the time since that is near my recovery pace.

After that race, I continued to run about 54 mpw with an 18 mile long run at whatever pace I could muster on any given day. My goal was to keep myself in a state of perpetual "marathon readiness" because, you know, it's tough to get yourself into marathon shape, so why let it slip away? I think I did this for about 6 months. The last week before the inevitable INJURY, I was running 6:45 pace for my daily runs and finishing the week with a 7:13 average 18 miler. This type of training was not in line with any of my PRs or even with my goal of an eventual sub-3. This type of training was preparing me for one thing: injury.

I trained that way for many of the same reasons you did. I'm a "balls to the wall" kind of person, and giving less than 100% on every run felt like a cop-out. Although I was aware that conventional wisdom seemed to say otherwise, I found it very hard to believe that it might be possible to get faster by running slower. Not to mention, who wants to waste time slogging through a bunch of slow miles? I like the feeling of the wind in my hair!

Regardless, I realized that running marathon pace for all of my runs was not a sustainable proposition. If I wanted to break 3, I knew I needed to train in a smarter way. I decided that I needed to entrust my running life to a higher power: Jack Daniels.

It was a great leap of faith to slow things down to ~7:40 pace for the majority of my miles. The key to the Jack Daniels approach is that you put in the work on 2 very intense days every week. There are 2 long runs every week that include workouts at specific paces within the long runs. These workouts are designed to get your legs exposure to the appropriate paces/stresses that they need to stimulate improvement while still providing the necessary recovery on the easy days. I found that the 2 workouts per week were challenging enough that I was grateful for the recovery days, and it really didn't feel like a cop-out at all.

Long story short, I got the sub-3 I was looking for and discovered a much more effective way of training.

You're definitely willing to put in the work, so you owe it to yourself to put your time and energy to work for you in the most productive way. Give one of those fancy proven programs a try (Pfitz, Daniels, etc.) and be sure to give yourself adequate recovery. I think you'll be really surprised with the results!

All the best in your training, outsiderunner!

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Replying just so this summary is on the thread twice to make sure outsiderunner reads it. Good stuff.

Thanks for these very personal and informative remarks, Toadlips. Yes, DSP, it is good stuff, and very interesting, too.

Your story, Toadlips, has more of an impact on me (than, say, reading something out of a book or article) for two reasons. First, I can see the similarity between us in our personalities, and, second, now that I have run 1:26:35 off of low mileage (and on a couse with some challenges), I have finally proven to myself that I might have a small amount of talent--that running is not all about training, training, training--and that I might be able to train with some ease, subtlety, and confidence. It is hard to get this through one's mind.

Running is a hard thing, and thus it is hard to trust or have faith. I am inclined to want to build, and build, and build. I see that I must train by building and recovering. I will check out the 2Q plan. Perhaps I will do a base, and then the 2Q.

I would, though, want an easy taper. This race has proven to me that I am best when I am rested. As Allen1959 and I have discussed, this is essential, especially for older guys. Even with the travel, etc., and the 0-dark-30 wake up time, I felt pretty fresh on Sunday. To me, running five days in the week prior to the race is insane.

I also learned that there is a huge mental component to racing. I have understood this to a certain degree, but now I understand it better. If I could get bored in a major event, and a half marathon, it certainly could happen over the marathon distance. Toward the end of a race, I also sometimes notice strange thoughts running through my mind. They are occasional thoughts of doubt or temptation. This happened when I got a little bored on Sunday. Even thogh I was feeling good and running at a solid pace--with good, controlled breathing--strange thoughts about "being a little tired" crept in. I think Sunday's good performance might help to stamp out this odd stuff.

I think most of the JD plans I have seen are 16- or 18-week build-ups. How long was yours? Did you use the suggested taper?

Thanks for the detailed input, and I wish you the very best in your training.

Hey OutsideRunner,

Did you know every other day Eliud Kipchoge does runs at 7:30-8:00 min/mile pace? This is a man that runs the marathon at 4:45 pace. Just want to keep pounding this concept. Hard work on hard days, easy work on easy days, but still run lots of days and lots of miles.

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/nike-two-hour-marathon-2/

Thanks, DSP. Yes, that is pretty easy running for a guy like Kipchohge. I see your point.

My easy miles and volume will be coming first (here in the coming months), but what is your thinking in regard to a taper? Now that I have two experiences to compare, I can say I felt much better going into the NYC Half than the NYCM. I did not feel awful going into the NYCM, but I did not have the freshness I had going into the NYC Half.

My planned last two weeks prior to Boston:

TWO WEEKS OUT (48 miles off of a 90 mile peak):

M - Off

Tu - 6 miles easy

W - 5 miles easy; 3 miles tempo; 5 miles easy; 3 miles tempo; 2 miles cool down - the odds are decent that I will scale this back some (maybe a moderately long run of 12-14 with a moderately long mp finish), but this is what is on the calendar.

Th - Off

F - 6 miles easy

Sa - 2 miles easy; 2.5 miles tempo; 3 min rest; 2.5 miles tempo; 5 miles easy - 12 miles total

Su - 6 miles easy

ONE WEEK OUT (37-38 miles):

M - 12 miles easy

Tu - 6 miles easy

W - 2 mi up; 4 x 1200 @ tempo pace (3:57, 3:52, 3:57, 3:55) w/2:00 rest; 1 mi down

Th - 6 miles easy

F - 4 miles easy

Sa - Off

Su - 3-4 miles easy

If I recall your NYC full taper, you said at the time you started reducing mileage for like 5 weeks. That's too long. Most I've ever heard is 3 weeks with progressive cutdowns.

I'm working my way through the Hanson's plan right now for the first time and they actually don't really cut weekly mileage until one week before. The last "long" (for Hanson's) run is 3 weeks out, you still do 10@ MP 10 days out, and you still run the same number of days the last week, but about 60% of the mileage. For example...I'm trying to follow Hanson's to a T to see how it shakes out, so the last 7 weeks are 55/50/55/50/56/50/32, race the first Sunday following 32. Their argument is too much rest leads to staleness. If you're doing some more drastic building up and peak weeks like Smoove instead of just trying to hit 50s consistently you'll definitely need more time and more cutback like he outlined.

Best advice I've heard is it's different for everybody so you have to try a few different things. Maybe at NYC last year you tried 5 weeks with only slightly reduced mileage each week? Maybe try something shorter and more drastic now? Not sure. Follow the plan, do your own thing for taper, inevitably mess up a couple times in the learning process.

I, too, think it varies according to the individual person. Let me know how the Hanson's method works for you. To me, that does not seem like much of a taper, but I hope it works for you. I can only reiterate that rest really seemed to make a difference for me this time around. In fact, I even think that more rest during training is a plus, too, especially for an older runner. As a result of my IT band problem, my weekly volume was paltry for 8-9 weeks (-23 mpw), and yet I got fairly close to a PR.

I have so many things going through my mind right now I could not even describe then all. Lots and lots of ideas after Sunday's run...I must let everything sink in for a while.

Here are my last eleven weeks of training (weekly mileage)...

12, 18, 11, 20, 22, 26, 33, 40, 48, 36, 18 + 13.1 (the race)

So, I averaged 22.75 miles for eight weeks, and then peaked at 48 miles. I started feeling better after seven weeks, but when I upped my volume to 40, my IT band started to sting again. At that point, I increased my stetching and rolling (with The Stick, not a foam roller), and things got better Once this happened, I upped my intensity. I was getting pretty fast...I ran a 12.5-miler at 6:59 pace (progression and finishing fast) and a 10.25-miler at 6:43 pace (progression and finishing fast). I thought the 12.5-miler was a fluke, but we all know that there are no flukes in distance running. The 10.25-miler confirmed my progress, and really pumped me up. Both runs were done without pushing too much and feeling good and in control the entire way.

Throughout, I did lots of four-day-per week running--again, paltry stuff for most competitive runners, and pretty unconventional as per most training plans. I did so in order to deal with the IT band and keep running. I would space out my runs, M, W, F, Sat. I had only one week wherein I ran on five days, the 48-mile week.

What a lesson this has been for me.

In a nutshell, my perspective on training has been greatly altered.

As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. More volume is usually better, as long as you are fresh for workouts and races. In this case you got away with low volume because of the historically high volume you did.

My guess is 60-70 mpw with easy days at easy pace and quality days reasonably hard and a good, structured 2-3 week taper is your sweet spot.

Smoove wrote:

As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. More volume is usually better, as long as you are fresh for workouts and races. In this case you got away with low volume because of the historically high volume you did.

My guess is 60-70 mpw with easy days at easy pace and quality days reasonably hard and a good, structured 2-3 week taper is your sweet spot.

I agree, Smoove--the "means between the extremes" is where the truth lies. I think you pretty much have hit it right on the head with my sweet spot. Thank you for the comment. I will look to keep the basic guidelines you have suggested. I would, though, like to get a block of high/easy miles in at some point--again, nowhere near goal race.

All the best to you...

Outsiderunner, on the subject of tapering, I thought I would share my actual training log leading up to my masters' PR marathon. I was 43 years old at the time, and my performances and goals were very comparable to where you are now.

My marathon went EXACTLY as I had planned. My goal was to run comfortably under three hours (it had been 20 years since I had last accomplished that), so I planned to race at 6:45 per mile. The marathon went perfectly, with just a slight negative split.

Below are the six weeks from my peak mileage week to race day. I had averaged 42 mpw for the prior three months.

6 WEEKS TO GO (peak mileage week)

Su: 5 x 1000m @ 3:26 w/2 min recoveries

M: 5 miles @ 7:40/mi

T: 23 miles @ 8:29/mi

W: 8 miles slowly w/5th-7th @ 7:49, 7:10, 6:23

Th: 14 miles @ 7:02/mi (on marathon course)

F: 7 miles @ 8:34/mi

Sa: Off

TOTAL: 63 miles

5 WEEKS TO GO

Su: 5 x 600m @ 2:00 w/2 min recoveries

M: 5 miles @ 8:08/mi

T: 21 miles @ 7:21/mi

W: 4 miles slowly

Th: 14 miles @ 7:10/mi w/10th-12th @ 6:50, 6:45, 6:16

F: 2 miles slowly w/6x100y strides

Sa: Off

TOTAL: 50 miles

4 WEEKS TO GO

Su: 5K Race: 17:48

M: 17 miles @ 8:04/mi

T: 4 miles @ 7:48/mi

W: 4 miles @ 7:48/mi w/6x100y strides

Th: 7 miles easy on Half Marathon course

F: Off

Sa: Half Marathon Race: 1:22:47

TOTAL: 51 miles

3 WEEKS TO GO

Su: Off

M: 9 miles @ 8:30/mi

T: 5 miles @ 7:34/mi w/4th @ 6:35

W: 20 miles @ 7:48/mi

Th: 5 miles @ 9:16/mi

F: 2 miles @ 8:50/mi

Sa: 7 miles @ 7:50/mi w/10x100y strides

TOTAL: 48 miles

2 WEEKS TO GO

Su: Off

M: 3 miles w/1.8 mi @ 5:55/mi

T: 17 miles @ 8:23/mi

W: Off

Th: 9 miles @ 8:40/mi w/3x90sec @ 5K pace

F: 2 miles @ 8:45/mi w/90sec @ 5K pace

Sa: 5K Race: 17:32

TOTAL: 39 miles

MARATHON WEEK

Su: 5 miles @ 7:39/mi

M: 7 miles @ 8:04/mi

T: 4 miles @ 8:05

W: 4 miles @ 8:20/mi w/6x100y strides

Th: 4 miles @ 8:30/mi

F: 2 miles @ 8:45/mi

Sa: Marathon: 2:56:03

TOTAL: 26 miles (plus marathon)

For what it's worth! It was interesting for me to look back on that training. That was my 23rd marathon, I think, and the last one until this past fall ... more than 13 years later.

-Allen