Well, Actually wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
Yes. It would be a huge net gain for everyone. It's far more costly to keep polluting.
No. It's not.
Yes. It is.
Well, Actually wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
Yes. It would be a huge net gain for everyone. It's far more costly to keep polluting.
No. It's not.
Yes. It is.
The Liberal Way wrote:
Monkeys typing wrote:
Just so we're all on the same page, could you state clearly how much this would cost and who would suffer the most. A link to your favored analysis would be great.
Thanks in advance.
Silly boy. We don't need to know how much it will cost and what the effects will be on the middle and lower class.
We should just do it because it sounds like a good thing to do. Let someone else figure out how to pay for it down the road.
Even if your characterization of the liberal position was true, how is it any different from Trump's actions to bring back coal even as it is cost uncompetitive with fracked natural gas?
Here's your opportunity to not appear every bit as dogmatic as you imagine "the other side" to be. Or you could just troll the thread.
Racket wrote:
If the markets keep taking a hit then he's gonna be impeached so hard. Rich republicans signed up for epic gains not a bear market
...tend to know which way the market is going to go well in advance... what makes you so sure they aren't cashing in on this market move?
TTH wrote:
Dems need to be careful what they wish for. Removing Trump from office by means other than being voted out could lead to 2 full terms of Mike Pence. While it would eliminate the Grand Tweeter to remove him and possibly see him indicted after the fact, I'm not sure politically that would be the best situation for the left leaning on this board.
THIS. We literally could end up with Mike Pence having the second -longest tenure of any American president. Yikes!
But I'm also one of the people who thinks that DJT has a solid chance of being re-elected.
hjtw wrote:
TTH wrote:
Dems need to be careful what they wish for. Removing Trump from office by means other than being voted out could lead to 2 full terms of Mike Pence. While it would eliminate the Grand Tweeter to remove him and possibly see him indicted after the fact, I'm not sure politically that would be the best situation for the left leaning on this board.
THIS. We literally could end up with Mike Pence having the second -longest tenure of any American president. Yikes!
But I'm also one of the people who thinks that DJT has a solid chance of being re-elected.
Tiny is a danger to our nation and our world. Whatever gets him out of office the fastest is what we need to do.
Then we'll worry about the rest.
But I'm not so sure that Pence won't be implicated as well. He was not only the VP candidate, he also led the transition after Christie was fired. It's hard to imagine he was able to keep his hands clean.
I just like watching the house burn. About 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 people still supported Nixon even after the tapes. People are tribal....
Alan
Fat hurts wrote:
hjtw wrote:
THIS. We literally could end up with Mike Pence having the second -longest tenure of any American president. Yikes!
But I'm also one of the people who thinks that DJT has a solid chance of being re-elected.
Tiny is a danger to our nation and our world. Whatever gets him out of office the fastest is what we need to do.
Then we'll worry about the rest.
But I'm not so sure that Pence won't be implicated as well. He was not only the VP candidate, he also led the transition after Christie was fired. It's hard to imagine he was able to keep his hands clean.
1) You are correct that The Orange One needs to be removed as soon as possible, regardless of whether Pence takes over. Trump is a criminal and a serial liar. He must be removed.
2) You might be right that Pence will be in trouble too. It does seem that anyone associated with Trump has worsened their life, so this could be true for Pence as well. We have heard absolutely nothing on him so far, so we just really don't know.
the pence story is possible fascinating. He and Manafort are tied together. Apparently Manafort pushed for Pence. Why? I mean it's possible Manafort gave solid, ethical political advice but he's so compromised, it wouldn't be impossible to see him take Pence down.
Double impeachment, hen President Pelosi!
Flagpole wrote:
Trump is a criminal and a serial liar. He must be removed.
Bill Cilnton was a criminal (he committed perjury) and a serial liar. But Dems refused to remove him.
If Dems start impeachment based on hush money, the public perception will be "They couldn't find evidence for Russian collusion. So they are trying to nail Trump on an entirely unrelated, rather trivial matter. This is just like that Ken Starr investigation."
You know how that turned out for the GOP.
Make America Great Again wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
Trump is a criminal and a serial liar. He must be removed.
Bill Cilnton was a criminal (he committed perjury) and a serial liar. But Dems refused to remove him.
If Dems start impeachment based on hush money, the public perception will be "They couldn't find evidence for Russian collusion. So they are trying to nail Trump on an entirely unrelated, rather trivial matter. This is just like that Ken Starr investigation."
You know how that turned out for the GOP.
While I mostly agree with M_A_G_A_ here, I have to correct a frequently-seen error.
Bill Clinton *did* lie under oath; he did not commit perjury.
Perjury has to concern a *material* question. Clinton's comment was not about a material question.
He still lied. Wasn't perjury, though.
Make America Great Again wrote:
Bill Cilnton was a criminal (he committed perjury) and a serial liar. But Dems refused to remove him.
If Dems start impeachment based on hush money, the public perception will be "They couldn't find evidence for Russian collusion. So they are trying to nail Trump on an entirely unrelated, rather trivial matter. This is just like that Ken Starr investigation."
You know how that turned out for the GOP.
It's hard to say what the public perception would be. You never really know about this kind of stuff.
A campaign finance violation like this is not trivial though. It's a felony for a reason. If rich people are going to self-finance their campaigns then that's fine. They are free to do what they want with their money. But they are not free to conceal the purpose of those funds from the voters.
If you think paying off a mistress or two is a trivial matter then that's one voter's opinion. But a whole lot of other voters would not think it's trivial. And the voters have a right to know how money is being spent to influence the election.
Tiny knew that lots of voters would turn away from him if they found out the truth. That's why he illegally hid the payments and committed a felony.
agip wrote:
the pence story is possible fascinating. He and Manafort are tied together. Apparently Manafort pushed for Pence. Why? I mean it's possible Manafort gave solid, ethical political advice but he's so compromised, it wouldn't be impossible to see him take Pence down.
Double impeachment, hen President Pelosi!
The story of how Pence got the VP nod has always been that he was the only one who would take the job. He was a semi-qualified politician who was so damaged that he had nothing to lose.
I didn't know about the Manafort angle. That is interesting indeed.
Flagpole wrote:
Runningart2004 wrote:
So firing Comey because he wouldn’t stop the Flynn investigation isn’t obstruction?
Alan
Yeah, the guy is a fool. Trump has obstructed justice right out in the open. Don Jr. and Kushner are going to be indicted for Conspiracy Against the United States, and this will be connected to The Orange One too. Mueller has the goods. The only question at this point is if Trump will be indicted while still in office or if it will be after he is out.
Once conspiracy is shown (and it will be) not only will I be right about Trump in general, but I will be proven right about the 2016 election too that he could not be elected without cheating or help from space aliens.
You make up obstruction charges and are clueless to what that actually means. Me thinks you are ignorant and just like to read your own garbage. Trump is no different than Obama, but Obama was saved by his race. You and your cronies are to blind and biased to see that.
Fat hurts wrote:
agip wrote:
the pence story is possible fascinating. He and Manafort are tied together. Apparently Manafort pushed for Pence. Why? I mean it's possible Manafort gave solid, ethical political advice but he's so compromised, it wouldn't be impossible to see him take Pence down.
Double impeachment, hen President Pelosi!
The story of how Pence got the VP nod has always been that he was the only one who would take the job. He was a semi-qualified politician who was so damaged that he had nothing to lose.
I didn't know about the Manafort angle. That is interesting indeed.
Manafort, being a smart political actor, pushed Pence to bring the Koch Brothers political machine on board the Trump Train once it was inevitable that Trump would win the Republican primary.
Despite the open mutual desdain between Trump and the Kochs, this gave Trump's populist campaign well established political operatives and gave the Kochs a bunch of cabinet toadies to drive their policy agenda (Zinke, DeVos, Pruitt/Wheeler, Pompeo, Ross, etc).
Monkeys typing wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
The story of how Pence got the VP nod has always been that he was the only one who would take the job. He was a semi-qualified politician who was so damaged that he had nothing to lose.
I didn't know about the Manafort angle. That is interesting indeed.
Manafort, being a smart political actor, pushed Pence to bring the Koch Brothers political machine on board the Trump Train once it was inevitable that Trump would win the Republican primary.
Despite the open mutual desdain between Trump and the Kochs, this gave Trump's populist campaign well established political operatives and gave the Kochs a bunch of cabinet toadies to drive their policy agenda (Zinke, DeVos, Pruitt/Wheeler, Pompeo, Ross, etc).
If Pence is planted by the Kochs then there is less chance he is mixed up in the Russia stuff. The Koch brothers are filthy, but I don't think they are beholden to Putin.
I just wonder if Pence was smart enough to stay away from the Russians during the transition.
Fat hurts wrote:
Tiny knew that lots of voters would turn away from him if they found out the truth. That's why he illegally hid the payments and committed a felony.
No one pays hush money openly, whether they are running for an office or not. If Trump claims the payment was to protect his marriage and he didn't know it was illegal, then the prosecution has the burden to disprove it beyond reasonable doubt. And just because Cohen has accepted the prosecution's account of events, that does not mean it is an established fact. It only means Cohen did not dispute that account.
Do they have any physical evidence other than the leaked tape? (That tape does not prove that Trump "knowingly and willfully" violated the FECA.)
Runningart2004 wrote:
I just like watching the house burn.
Alan
I do too! But then you realize that's kinda your house that's burning. This presidency is nothing short of a total embarrassment for all United States citizens
Fat hurts wrote:
Monkeys typing wrote:
Manafort, being a smart political actor, pushed Pence to bring the Koch Brothers political machine on board the Trump Train once it was inevitable that Trump would win the Republican primary.
Despite the open mutual desdain between Trump and the Kochs, this gave Trump's populist campaign well established political operatives and gave the Kochs a bunch of cabinet toadies to drive their policy agenda (Zinke, DeVos, Pruitt/Wheeler, Pompeo, Ross, etc).
If Pence is planted by the Kochs then there is less chance he is mixed up in the Russia stuff. The Koch brothers are filthy, but I don't think they are beholden to Putin.
I just wonder if Pence was smart enough to stay away from the Russians during the transition.
It's doubtful the Kochs are Putin fans but they have common business interests.
Flynn was allegedly dismissed for lying to Pence about his Russian contacts during the transition, if you believe Trump's version of events. Try not to giggle.
Make America Great Again wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
Trump is a criminal and a serial liar. He must be removed.
Bill Cilnton was a criminal (he committed perjury) and a serial liar. But Dems refused to remove him.
If Dems start impeachment based on hush money, the public perception will be "They couldn't find evidence for Russian collusion. So they are trying to nail Trump on an entirely unrelated, rather trivial matter. This is just like that Ken Starr investigation."
You know how that turned out for the GOP.
Whataboutism!!! False equivalency!!!
Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice. In my opinion, he should have been removed from office.
Clinton did lie, but he was not a serial liar. Trump has run away with the biggest liar ever award...and it's not even close.
Even so, here is why what Trump has done, is much much worse.
1) Perjury? Yep...for sure, and for things that are way more important than what Clinton lied about.
2) Obstruction of justice? Yep...for sure, and many times, and for things that are way more serious than what Clinton obstructed justice about.
3) Conspiracy with Russia to help win the election. Your assertion that they couldn't find this is odd and shows either great delusion or a lack of knowledge about how investigations such as this go. We obviously don't have anything we know that is public that shows this just yet, but it's going to happen. The Trump Tower meeting alone sinks Don Jr., Kushner, and just adds for Manafort, and there is no way The Orange One didn't know about it. Mueller has the goods. No one has moved on to other things because they couldn't prove conspiracy. You do know that Mueller has different people with different skill sets/expertise working on different parts of the investigation, right? The conspiracy is the biggest part of this investigation, and so it makes sense that it might be the last to be known. This is traitorous, and if we were at war with Russia, it would be treason. Treason is punishable by death!
4) Two felonies are hardly trivial matters. Not as big a deal as the obstruction of justice and the conspiracy will be, but they are still big deals. Just goes to show that he committed all kinds of crimes, not just one big crime.
Now, when you add to the fact that Clinton was likable and Trump is not, Clinton was capable and Trump is not, Clinton did not ruin relationships with our allies and cozy up to dictators while Trump HAS, it just makes it that much easier for those in his same party to decide to oust him. Also, Clinton was viewed as ONLY lying about an affair. Trump is lying about and will be viewed as lying about conspiring with Russia against the United States of America. That is a much bigger deal.
This is all about wits. Do you really pick Trump over Mueller? Over anyone?
Mueller is coming.
The clown is done.
Racket wrote:
Runningart2004 wrote:
I just like watching the house burn.
Alan
I do too! But then you realize that's kinda your house that's burning. This presidency is nothing short of a total embarrassment for all United States citizens
I do NOT enjoy watching the house burn at all. I would MUCH rather that Trump were a reasonable and legitimate President that I just disagreed with policy-wise rather than have to witness this dumpster fire and see the worst in people (ALL of his supporters).