Pfitz 18/70 - Week 2, Workout 5 - Failed

I train in miles so I can't easily follow your spreadsheet, but I will say that I've attempted to use 18/70 a few times previously and I've never gotten through it completely healthy. I do recall just feeling completely drained with some of those MP and LT runs. I've since switched to using Hudson-based plans that seem to work better for me. Sorry that isn't much help.

I dig the Stanley Park run. Reminds me of Skinny Puppy's Too Dark Park ages ago.

Chillin wrote:

Today I was supposed to run 13km easy, then 13km at marathon pace (4:16/km). The first 13km were easy, of course, but I did feel a little bit tired and sore, but just a bit. Then as soon as I started running at marathon pace it felt Way harder than it should have and could only do 3km at that pace.

This is why you should listen to your body, and change your original plans if feeling tired and you struggle with the pace that you planned to run.

M pace needs to be based on your current fitness, not your goal.

maybe this: wrote:

M pace needs to be based on your current fitness, not your goal.

This.

The Garmin data is interesting. The transition from easy to MP is pretty abrupt. For this kind of workout, it seems like a better approach is to let the pace come to you more gradually, so that in the last couple km of the easy running, your pace is already starting to drift towards the faster pace, and your first couple km of the MP segment get you onto the target pace. There's a definite transition, but not as abrupt. If you look at the Garmin data, your pace and HR are actually falling at the end of the easy segment, and then the MP segment looks like you're starting a 5K.

Some days, it just doesn't happen and there's not much you can do about it. But next time you might want to experiment with the transition from easy to MP running a bit.

garmin analyst wrote:

The transition from easy to MP is pretty abrupt. For this kind of workout, it seems like a better approach is to let the pace come to you more gradually, so that in the last couple km of the easy running, your pace is already starting to drift towards the faster pace, and your first couple km of the MP segment get you onto the target pace.

That was my thought, as well. And some days, it just doesn't happen. Nothing to fret about, IMO.

I based my MP on my goal pace simply because I have nothing else to base it on. Last year in the same race my avg pace was 4:34 but I am in much better shape than that now so it would be very counter productive to base all my paces on a year old race.

I could do a 5K time trial but that would mess up my training program if I taper for it and wouldn't be representative of my actual fitness if I don't (plus basing Marathon pace in a 5K is a bad idea IMO).

Also I know that 13km at 4:15/km is well within my current fitness level.

Anyways I found out why my heart rate spiked and my energy dropped so quick: last night/this morning I was shivering and sweating, while totally stuffed up, and with a sore throat. I almost never get sick, so I guess I just missed the signs.

But as suggested a slower transition between training paces would probably be a better idea. I will try that next time.

The plan is awesome. Stick with it, making very minor changes as needed

Good to hear. Will do.

The transition isn't the problem, the pace you selected is more likely since you don't know where you are at.

Replace a workout with a 10k race, don't worry about tapering - just run easy for 3 days prior, and get yourself a current gauge of your fitness level.

Over-training will get you sick.

Mr. Dunn, what's your temperature reading?

this is the mistake that many make in preparing for a marathon. In a run like that, the 26k is the important part, not the paces. If I was running that and at the 55k mark I was into my pace that I need to hit, that is when I start it.

Your bonk was likely mental, you forced yourself into a pace that you aren't ready for

Captain Oveur wrote:

The transition isn't the problem, the pace you selected is more likely since you don't know where you are at.

Replace a workout with a 10k race, don't worry about tapering - just run easy for 3 days prior, and get yourself a current gauge of your fitness level.

Over-training will get you sick.

Mr. Dunn, what's your temperature reading?

I agree the transition want the problem. The sickness was.

I've done many runs at that pace. 4:15/km is easy.

I haven't been over training though, the last couple weeks I've been running less and easier than I was before that.

Running easy for 3 days will throw off my training plan. So just scrap the training plan for 4 days?

Actually there is a half Marathon next Sunday. Maybe I should sign up for that and do that instead of the 24km (easy) the training plan calls for. But I'm not willing to drop the training plan for the rest of the week, so it still wouldn't be a true indication of my fitness.

Nice to see you again outsiderunner.

Doesn't the Pfitz plan incorporate tune-up races to gauge your fitness level?

Yes, but not for 9 more weeks.

And doing the HM race this Sunday when I'm just (hopefully) getting over being sick is a Really bad idea, so I won't be doing that one.

maybe this: wrote:

M pace needs to be based on your current fitness, not your goal.

This didn't seem right to me so I just double checked... According To Advanced Marathoning 2nd Edition by Pete Pfitzinger (which is of course where this training plan is from): "Marathon-pace runs are medium-long or long runs during which you run most of the miles at your goal Marathon pace"

I mean why spend 18 weeks training to run at a Marathon pace that you could run at the beginning of the 18 weeks. That completely defeats the purpose of training at all.

Adaptation is your goal, not rehearsing your event. You run at your current capability in order to adapt and improve, otherwise you are overreaching, Nothing in your training log showed you have the capability to run 3 hour marathon pace for an extended time and that was borne out by your workout. If your current capability was that 3:00 your wouldn't have to do 18 weeks of high mileage training.

Chillin wrote:

maybe this: wrote:

M pace needs to be based on your current fitness, not your goal.

This didn't seem right to me so I just double checked... According To Advanced Marathoning 2nd Edition by Pete Pfitzinger (which is of course where this training plan is from): "Marathon-pace runs are medium-long or long runs during which you run most of the miles at your goal Marathon pace"

I mean why spend 18 weeks training to run at a Marathon pace that you could run at the beginning of the 18 weeks. That completely defeats the purpose of training at all.

You gotta use something and "goal" pace isn't it. Your goal should come into focus as you train and make progress.

If you insist on using your "goal" pace why not make your goal 2 hours? Sure would pay a lot better.

Either use Daniels' vdot tables or HR per pfitz:

Marathon Pace runs

Most specific type of training

On road simulating marathon course

Approx 79-88% Max HR or 73-84%HRreserve

Practice race pace and maintaining technique

Start comfortably and build up to race pace

Include sparingly (2-3 times over 12 weeks)

I've used the Pfitz plans with a bit of tweaking a couple of times with decent results (marathon time down from 2:40 to 2:33 in 2016) and on both occasions the first long run with MP pace at the end has ended in failure. The first time I was pretty disappointed, the second time I though "hmmm, strange". Last weekend I tried to do my first long run with MP of this marathon cycle and exactly the same thing happened.

In short, from my experience you needn't worry - as long as you're getting consistent miles in and can complete most the other workouts how you'd like, you should be good...