Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

Good input here, darkwave--thanks.

I have 4 or 5 shoes to choose from, and I will weigh things using your input and advice.

Would you, darkwave, like to come out and cheer me on? At this point, and after hearing all of the criticisms here, I could use a boost. Nothing in life is perfect. I made the best decision I could, considering all of the relevant factors. Those that get everything to go right for a marathon are lucky.

darkwave wrote:

c) in the 10+ days since New York you've done a handful of runs at "marathon pace" - a very unorthodox recovery technique.

I agree that your training since NYC may have been a bit too agressive. You may want to not run between now and the race to maximize your recovery.

Also, be sure to upload your GPS data to Strava. If you run a negative spit, New Balance will give you free shoes provided that the course is certified.

gregmacd wrote:

darkwave wrote:

c) in the 10+ days since New York you've done a handful of runs at "marathon pace" - a very unorthodox recovery technique.

I agree that your training since NYC may have been a bit too agressive. You may want to not run between now and the race to maximize your recovery.

Also, be sure to upload your GPS data to Strava. If you run a negative spit, New Balance will give you free shoes provided that the course is certified.

The course is certified.

outsiderunner wrote:

Good input here, darkwave--thanks.

Would you, darkwave, like to come out and cheer me on? At this point, and after hearing all of the criticisms here, I could use a boost. Nothing in life is perfect. I made the best decision I could, considering all of the relevant factors. Those that get everything to go right for a marathon are lucky.

a) you're not making the best decision you can, given all of the relevant factors. The best decision in this case would be recovering from NYC and targeting sub-3 next year.

b) I have a long run/workout of my own scheduled that morning. I will be in the general area, and if I get a chance to hang out during one of the turnaround points and cheer after my own run, I will. I think this is a really bad idea, but I don't genuinely wish you harm.

>> I get to the Bronx, and start feeling pain in my quads.

Let me guess, you didn't take from the Powergel station at mile 18. I took one and that is the one I felt, not the 8 gel packets in my pockets (4 Powergel 2 G.U. 1 CliffShot 1 Stinger). The race felt nothing like the training, but then NYC Marathon is unique in many ways.

Er... wrote:

1 runner under 3:00; 3 total under 3:15.

OMG, I just read through this entire thread. All I can say is, OP, even if you don't PR, you've got a shot at winning! Good luck! I'm anxious to hear how it goes for you.

examined wrote:

>> I get to the Bronx, and start feeling pain in my quads.

Let me guess, you didn't take from the Powergel station at mile 18. I took one and that is the one I felt, not the 8 gel packets in my pockets (4 Powergel 2 G.U. 1 CliffShot 1 Stinger). The race felt nothing like the training, but then NYC Marathon is unique in many ways.

That is right--I did not take a gel from the mile 18 station. I use only my own gels, which are Stinger (organic). I used a total of five Stingers.

Yes, the race felt nothing like the training, but only in the last 5 or 6 miles. I felt very good (and in complete control) for the first 20. I was shocked at what happened, and still am.

You're small and the surface is soft so I'd go with the fastest shoe.

Give'em hell. I'm pulling for you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Angryjohnny! Will do my best to give 'em hell.

Will wear my fast shoes.

If this guy turns out to be a troll I am going to be upset and impresed.

outsiderunner wrote:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Angryjohnny! Will do my best to give 'em hell.

Will wear my fast shoes.

Hello? Hello? Anybody home? Huh? Think, McFly! Think!

This is how you blew up at New York. You just described the definition of blowing up:

I don't think anyone on this forum would picture a 200+ male or female when you said you were 47 y/o 3:02 marathoner. The first assumption is that you are light/small. There is also a second consideration besides mileage you are not considering, that rubber degrades just from sitting on a shelf for years.

Without knowing what model they are, I think it was a safe assumption to assume racing shoes when you say "you keep them in a box under your bed and only use them for races."

It's becoming very clear to me that you want to use this forum to hear positive reinforcement of what you want to hear, rather than genuinely seeking advice.

Ggggggg wrote:

If this guy turns out to be a troll I am going to be upset and impresed.

Times and race backstory are real, don't know if post-NYC premise and Potomac plan are. If he is, he did a good job covering his tracks.

If he's for real and he makes it through this with a PR, he's atypical in my opinion.

OK, David...not trying to do anyhing here except figure out what happened and move in positive direction. I had NO idea my friend would suggest doing another marathon in two weeks. At first, I thought she were kidding or nuts, but when she explained herself, it seemed to make sense, though I remained against it for a few days. As my soreness diminished and the weather forecast looked good, I figured: give it a try--you have nothing to lose...just take a different approach and tweak some things.

Again, if I feel good after running a 1:30 or so half, I will see what happens--that was the plan, along with a couple of other tweaks (as suggested in this thread).

Right now, though, the forecast remains pretty bad, calling for 26 mph winds. This is a real bummer, and I hope and pray that it changes.

Resting today...thanks for the comments.

I should also note that I had thought a "blow up" to be the result of a lack of fitness or some cardio-vascular deficiency, not the result of leg muscles cramping up. That was my understanding, and if I am wrong then I am wrong.

outsiderunner wrote:

I should also note that I had thought a "blow up" to be the result of a lack of fitness or some cardio-vascular deficiency, not the result of leg muscles cramping up. That was my understanding, and if I am wrong then I am wrong.

With all due respect, from my point of view, if you set out at one pace and drastically slow down due to pain in the last 10k, then at least on that day a lack of fitness caused you to miss your goal (in other words, you are fit, but you are not as fit as your goal pace/early pace). Here's a little tidbit about marathon muscle cramps:

"This is because your marathon cramping isn’t likely a hydration or electrolyte issue at all. Rather, the problem is what we call a “muscle overloading” or a fatigue cramp. This occurs when the neural mechanisms that are supposed to inhibit muscle contraction are depressed and the chemical and electrical synapses that fire the muscle fibers are enhanced. The result is an intense, sustained involuntary muscle contraction."

and

"Since cramping is caused by a breakdown in the neurological transmissions caused by extreme muscle fatigue"

Like I said, best of luck. You may just be more robust than I.

Thanks, David! The first paragraph of the Competitor article describes me exactly, though my cramps were not in my calves. The description of everything going well and a "sure PR" are an exact match. Running down First Ave., I felt: "This is it--not much to go--I will do it!"

This is an impressive thread!

I'm running Philly this Sunday if you want to run with me! My first attempt at a sub 3...and you're more than welcome to join!

Forecast looks to be windy (from the West though, so crosswind for a good part of the race), but at 15-20+ mph I am a bit worried too.

What's LR advice? Man up, find a pack of runners to run with (on 2:59 pace) and run smart? Is it possible to run close to "optimal" in these conditions?

Let me start by repeating my honest assertion that I hope for the best for you. These boards can be famously negative and I try always to be supportive and positive. That said, you seem to respond to genuine attempts at constructive criticism defensively and you appear to dismiss the input from people with a lot more training and racing experience than you have. The consensus is that yes, you blew up at NYC, most likely because you pushed yourself too hard in training. I'm in agreement with many here that you can go sub-3:00 if you modify your training and listen to advice and to your body. You can hear many people make claims like, "I was heading for a great PR until I got a calf cramp" or "but I had stomach problems" or "and then my quads started to tighten badly." Frequently the underlying attitude appears to be that these difficulties were unrelated to training preparation or fitness and so were unfortunate byproducts of the circumstances of the day. If only my quads hadn't become sore I would have PRd. But as has been demonstrated very nicely above, those muscles cramps, that stomach problem, that tightening of the hamstrings--all of these are signs of runners pushing themselves at a pace they can't maintain for the duration. Usually it's because they're undertrained. In your case, that 22-miler and your many, many runs at your goal MP probably took too much out of you. Had you trained differently likely you would have gone sub 3 but on the day, No, you weren't prepared and so your body broke down. You say on the very first page that you never get muscle cramps when you race but you've run two marathons and have been hampered significantly by cramps in one of them. That doesn't equal never getting muscle cramps.So many, many people have offered their explanation as to what happened in NYC. Please remember that the overwhelming opinion is that you ran a great race on a difficult course under adverse pre-race conditions. Secondarily, many think you left too much on the roads on those training runs before race day. Saying "But I felt great" or "I didn't feel drained at all" about those training runs doesn't mean they don't constitute overtraining. You ran too fast on some of your crucial runs and your taper was odd over those four weeks. Additionally, a 24-week cycle likely left you with less spring in your legs than a shorter cycle would have.As to running this race because, in part, you have nothing to lose, several people disagree with you here. Third marathon at 47, two weeks after your second, on a different surface, etc. The chances of injury are high. The chance of a result that discourages you is high.I'd say replies are split between Go for it and see what happens and Don't do it wait until spring. The choice is yours. Whatever you choose, listen to your body and remember that we usually do this because it's fun--make it so!

outsiderunner wrote:

OK, David...not trying to do anyhing here except figure out what happened and move in positive direction....As my soreness diminished and the weather forecast looked good, I figured: give it a try--you have nothing to lose