Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

Would have been nice to have that temp last Sunday.

My return to aerobic exercise today involved about 8 easy...on the bike. I can't imagine doing anything near MP this soon.

Yes, that weather would have been great for last Sunday.

In regard to MP running, do your legs hurt? Is anything else problematic?

I had some Achilles peritendinitis come out of nowhere 2 weeks before NYC. I was fortunately able to make it though the race, but it was very aggravated from the minute I stopped moving at the bag check truck until about Wednesday. It feels good enough now to return to running easy, and my legs otherwise feel fine after a few days of typical post-marathon quad soreness, but I don't want to take any chances with the Achilles so I'm going to give it a little more time. Even without the Achilles issue, I would run easy for at least a couple of weeks before I start doing anything at MP or faster. Your mind and body need a break.

OP, I realize this thread is getting long, and I skipped the last couple pages but here's another piece of advice.

You said your highest mileage was 77 (which is great) but then your last 5 weeks were 60, 50, 49, 42, and 42. is that correct? That is a ridiculously long taper and probably left you a little stale on race day (although I think your #1 issue was standing/waiting so much pre-race).

There's no need to taper for more than 3 weeks, and I know many people that do just 2 weeks. You ought to run your peak mileage about 4-5 weeks out, and then you don't want to back off too much even in the last 2 weeks. If your peak was 77 and your average was 65ish (guessing), then your last 5 weeks should have been something like this: 73, 77, 65, 50, 40, race week.

reed wrote:

OP, I realize this thread is getting long, and I skipped the last couple pages but here's another piece of advice.

You said your highest mileage was 77 (which is great) but then your last 5 weeks were 60, 50, 49, 42, and 42. is that correct? That is a ridiculously long taper and probably left you a little stale on race day (although I think your #1 issue was standing/waiting so much pre-race).

There's no need to taper for more than 3 weeks, and I know many people that do just 2 weeks. You ought to run your peak mileage about 4-5 weeks out, and then you don't want to back off too much even in the last 2 weeks. If your peak was 77 and your average was 65ish (guessing), then your last 5 weeks should have been something like this: 73, 77, 65, 50, 40, race week.

Thanks, reed.

Yes, I peaked at 77, and my taper may have been a tad long, though I would need to check my log book. Yes, overall I averaged in the 65-ish range. I will look at what you have said for my last five weeks.

I just got back from another little run, a six-miler. After a few days of rest, I have been running every other day. This is my third run since the NYC marathon. One thing I have observed over the last year or so is that my body really likes the every-other-day schedule. It is excellent for recovery, and seems to maintain some fitness, too. To me, a perfect "maintenance base" or maintenance 40" is something like 10-10-10-10 or 8-10-10-12 on M, W, F, and Sat.

In any case, my body is almost back to normal--virtually no soreness (just a tad in the left quad). My friend that recommended doing another marathon still thinks I should do it, as long as it is flat and that I do not do much running here in the interim period. I have a race in mind, and it is flat. It is this weekend (so it meets her two-week interim criterion), and it is also on a trail, which is hard-packed dirt and pebbles. The race director says it is a nice, fast course, and I gather there would be less impact on this course than in a road race.

What do you think?

Also--where are you, angry willy? What do you think?

I forgot to provide my splits for today's six-miler...

7:35, 7:09, 6:58, 6:51, 6:35, 6:41.

Went 6.26 miles at an overall 6:57 pace. Again, my body just gravitated toward marathon pace.

I think you have your mind made up and will run this race no matter what.

I also think you will run 5-10 min slower than NYC.

thinker wrote:

I think you have your mind made up and will run this race no matter what.

I also think you will run 5-10 min slower than NYC.

Yes, I am close to having my mind made up. I will mkae a final decision sometime today. I have yet to register for the race.

What did you decide to do?

angryjohnny wrote:

What did you decide to do?

The legs are feeling good and the weather forecast looked very good (low to high 40s during the race), and so I registered last night. I wake up this morning to see BAD word in the forecast--"wind." To be precise, it says "PM wind," and so it is too early to tell exactly what will happen with the wind. The race starts at 9:00 am. That word scares me, though, as wind is a real PR-buster in a marathon. It also is tiring mentally.

The wind is a gamechanger on the 2nd half of the Philadelphia course. Last year was tough

Just want to chime in to say how dangerously wrong I think this advice is. 20-22 miles at marathon pace a month before a marathon makes no sense to me. Of course, angry willy says "at or near" but how are you supposed to know exactly what your MP is a month out? You may end up like OP and run 22 at or below MP and wreck your marathon.

And if you're running 22 @ MP a month out, why not just run the last 4.2 and be done with it?

How often do you think Bekele or Rupp run a workout that's 8500m @ 10,000m race pace? It's a direct route to burnout.

[quote]angry willy wrote:

RE: 22 at MP

But 16 miles at MP leaves you and your body in uncharted territory for 10 miles!

20 - 22 a month out at or near MP, followed by some recovery (just enough to recover, but not enough to make the body think that something has changed) really is the springboard to improved performance. All fitness is about the stress / adaptation cycle. You are training for a fitness level that will boost you to cover X number of miles at Y pace. Approximating the pace for 75 - 85% of the distance (stress) followed by some recovery (adaptation) certainly sets the stage for the next effort (MP for 26 miles).

[quote]

I was going for a 3:30 (8 min/mile) at NYC and was pretty much on pace until 30k (18.6 miles), and then tightened up. I ended up doing the last 7.6 miles at a 10:45 pace. I'm going to run CIM on Dec 4th, and I plan to do the same thing (except tkeep the pace up after 30k to the finish).

My cousin ran 79 marathons, and had the same experience of fading badly after the 30k mark. Despite this, he ran 22 minutes faster (for a 3:04) just 2 weeks later. He told me that its important to maximixe sleep and recovery between the 2 races, keeping the mileage low, and occassionaly doing 1.5 to 2 mile pickups.

Good Luck! (Are you running brooklyn or philly?)

gregmacd wrote:

I was going for a 3:30 (8 min/mile) at NYC and was pretty much on pace until 30k (18.6 miles), and then tightened up. I ended up doing the last 7.6 miles at a 10:45 pace. I'm going to run CIM on Dec 4th, and I plan to do the same thing (except tkeep the pace up after 30k to the finish).

My cousin ran 79 marathons, and had the same experience of fading badly after the 30k mark. Despite this, he ran 22 minutes faster (for a 3:04) just 2 weeks later. He told me that its important to maximixe sleep and recovery between the 2 races, keeping the mileage low, and occassionaly doing 1.5 to 2 mile pickups.

Good Luck! (Are you running brooklyn or philly?)

Also, just wanted to pointout that my cousin's race where he faded was the pancake flat 2013 Chicago marathon, and the race where he ran faster was the somewhat hilly MCM

thinker wrote:

I think you have your mind made up and will run this race no matter what.

I also think you will run 5-10 min slower than NYC.

I predict 10-15.

Out of curiosity, were you checking your splits at every mile?

outsiderunner wrote:

I forgot to provide my splits for today's six-miler...

7:35, 7:09, 6:58, 6:51, 6:35, 6:41.

Went 6.26 miles at an overall 6:57 pace. Again, my body just gravitated toward marathon pace.

Thanks for your kind words, gregmacd.

I will be running in the DC-area. I have been keeping things simple, running every other day, and have been trying to rest. Legs are feeling good.

In regard to checking splits, I do not see what relevance it has, but I normally look at my watch when it "dings" at the mile splits.

In regard to Sunday's race, I really have nothing to lose. I am going in with no pressure, and if I do not feel good I can always adjust my race plan. This time, I will do it as I would in a long training run, basically as angry willy has suggested (staying closer to 6:53, as in training). I will take it out pretty easily, and then look to slowly pick up the pace, more so in the second half. Will look to be around 1:30 at the half, perhaps even a tad slower.

This decision is out of the ordinary for me, but I am glad I have decided to give it a shot. In less than two months, I will be 48...

This will be an interesting experiment. I'd be shocked if you come close to 3:04. How does the course compare to NYC?

It is flat and tends toward being fast, even though it is on a trail. It is hard-packed dirt and pebbles. Overall, it is a small affair, but the course is certified.