Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

angryjohnny wrote:

Personal foul. Unnecessary and inconsiderate gloating at Outsiderunner's therapy session. On Hickory. Penalty is 15 yards from the end of the run. Automatic first down.

Response of the day. Nicely done.

To the OP - why run so fast back just a few days after a hard marathon? I also went back to your original post, and note that you commented that you saw your first 8 minute splits in ages at the end of NYC.

If your PR is 3:02 and you were targeting a sub-3:00, 8:00+ pace is something I'd still expect to see on recovery runs occasionally. And I have no idea why you'd be running ANYTHING at 6:xx pace (even the last mile of a run) just 4 days removed from your marathon.

Just food for thought - paying a bit more attention to recovery may get you where you want to go faster. I'm a masters runner also, and I can tell you that if we don't respect our need for recovery, it comes back to bite us at awkward times.

Yes, that was the response of the day.

Those were my first 8-minute splits I have seen in a race since I started running. I usually begin my easier runs at about 8:00 pace. I find slow running awkward and boring. My body just gravitates downward from 8:00.

I could use some more therapy.

I am considering running the Shamrock in the spring (March). It is flat and not too far away. That winter training scares me , though. I would need to come up with a solution in regard to that (I tend to dislike being in a gym). Perhaps I could train a little less and have success with that? There is one person here, though, that thinks I should increase my mileage a bit. That is very unlikely in winter, considering my past injury issues.

Where do you live? What winter injuries have you faced? I grew up in Ottawa and we had no trouble with winter training. Sure you miss some days because of snow and ice, but come spring everyone had winter miles in their legs.

outsiderunner wrote:

I could use some more therapy.

I am considering running the Shamrock in the spring (March). It is flat and not too far away. That winter training scares me , though. I would need to come up with a solution in regard to that (I tend to dislike being in a gym). Perhaps I could train a little less and have success with that? There is one person here, though, that thinks I should increase my mileage a bit. That is very unlikely in winter, considering my past injury issues.

Shamrock is a good choice. Even with insane winds last year I managed a much faster time that I pulled off running New York. Suck it up and train in the winter like the rest of us. Youll have a great experience at Shamrock. Not as much crowd support as New York but pancake flat and ridiculously cheaper.

I do not mind "sucking it up," but winter has not been kind to me. I normally train in winter (I do not sit it out), and do not even mind cold weather. In fact, I enjoy coming home to a warm house after a cold day's run.

Two winters in a row, I have had high hamstring/glute issues, one year on the right side, and one year on the left side. These are difficult, annoying injuries. I took some time off, but "ran through" some of it, as I longed to get back on the roads. I hate sitting around.

When the temp gets below the upper 20s (F), that is where I sense the problem is. I hate the heat/humidity, but January and February are the toughest training months here, as at least I have not been injured when the weather is warm or hot.

I live in a hilly area in Virginia. As far as the expense goes, I have checked some hotel rates and they are similar to what I paid in NYC. Many of the better choices (closer to the start) are already booked. The race itself is a little cheaper, but I did not pay the full $255 for NYC, as I am a veteran. I think I paid $215.

Yes, the race is flat, but I also checked the historical weather, and it looks like one will find plenty of wind on that course. I have friends who have run it, and they mentioned the wind...but they liked the race overall.

My PR is from Shamrock, on one of the really windy years. Even if it's windy, you can run fast.

I also have high hamstring issues, and have experienced some of the same issues in the winter. One thing that's helped me is to keep the area very warm - I wear compression shorts, and then slightly loose tights over top. I also make sure to start very slowly for the first few miles, and to take a hot shower pre-run on the coldest days.

Maybe try some of these during this upcoming winter, if you haven't already.

darkwave wrote:

My PR is from Shamrock, on one of the really windy years. Even if it's windy, you can run fast.

I also have high hamstring issues, and have experienced some of the same issues in the winter. One thing that's helped me is to keep the area very warm - I wear compression shorts, and then slightly loose tights over top. I also make sure to start very slowly for the first few miles, and to take a hot shower pre-run on the coldest days.

Maybe try some of these during this upcoming winter, if you haven't already.

Thanks, darkwave. These are good suggestions. I have been thinking you might live not far from me, and so I am not surprised that your PR is at the Shamrock.

I am leaning toward running Shamrock. With some prayers and some extra-careful practices, perhaps I can survive the winter mileage.

Interestingly, I have a friend who is a fellow master's runner, and is usually around 3-hours in a marathon. He is now in the 50-54 age group, where as I am still in the 45-49. We both ran Richmond 2015. He ran just under 3:01, and I ran 3:02. What is interesting is that, after Richmond, he ran 3:05-high at Shamrock. I was pretty surprised by this, thinking that if he could run a few ticks under 3:01 at Richmond, he could easily break 3:00 at the "flat" or "easier" Shamrock.

The problem with the OP is that he thinks running is some kind of science where you can create models and predict performance. It's not. It's more like an election poll where you can't predict squat.

I think that this provides some good insight:

outsiderunner wrote:

Most of the miles were around 6:40, and some of the 6:45s and 6:46s even felt like jogging. I was very surprised by how things ended. .

*How many miles per week did you run 6:40 pace? Miles/minutes per week at race pace is critical IMHO. I am suspecting that your leg twinges were due to overexerting your muscles ... at a pace that you hadn't adequately trained them to sustain.

It probably would have been best to hit 6:50s early on, (6:53 for example - as you did in TRAINING) then begin taking a body count at 20 miles (the number of people that your pass), with the number of "kills" in the last 6.2 being your motivator. The race doesn't start until 20 miles. =)

*I am 49 and retired from running/racing, but if I were training for a marathon, I would do very similar training to what you are doing, especially the longer runs at MP. Kudos to you for your rocking it at 47.

Thanks, angry willy. Yeah, I wanted to be 6:50s early on--that was my plan--but the ease of the pace made me stay in the 6:40s. I guess I got fooled.

All the best to you...

Winter running is an acquired taste. Don't give up on it just yet. You live in Virginia, not Minnesota, and I don't see any obvious connection between your injury and cold weather. Maybe you just need to ease into your runs a bit more slowly. I like to start every run with a couple of very slow (e.g. 8:00 to 8:30) warm-up miles before easing down to goal pace, even on easy runs. Maybe it would help if you ran your easy runs slower and quit worrying about pace. Maybe your body just needs more time to adjust to the pounding. It sounds like you have not been running very long if last year was your first marathon. It took me several years before I finally got to where something wasn't hurting all the time. Eventually the body just adapts. The other thing to consider during the short days of winter is running in areas that are well lit. I have found that running in dark areas of town even with a headlamp is asking to get injured, so in the winter I do most of my runs downtown where there are street lights everywhere.

My two cents.

angry willy wrote:

I would do very similar training to what you are doing, especially the longer runs at MP.

I think there is a lot of benefit to longer runs at marathon pace (up to about 16 miles or so), but I don't know anyone who does or recommends anything close to 22 at MP. That just seems insane to me.

angryjohnny - Depends on who you ask. =) RE: 22 at MP But 16 miles at MP leaves you and your body in uncharted territory for 10 miles! For good runners (6:00/mile - obviously, not good by LR standards) that puts you "out there" into no man's land for at least an hour, in the most critical part of the race. 20 - 22 a month out at or near MP, followed by some recovery (just enough to recover, but not enough to make the body think that something has changed) really is the springboard to improved performance. All fitness is about the stress / adaptation cycle. You are training for a fitness level that will boost you to cover X number of miles at Y pace. Approximating the pace for 75 - 85% of the distance (stress) followed by some recovery (adaptation) certainly sets the stage for the next effort (MP for 26 miles).Do some training runs at a very slow pace for 1:45:00 or so, followed by repeats at MP (3 x 2 miles, 2 x 3 miles) or MP "tempo" runs for 25 - 30 min. The "very slow pace" should be at a pace that is easy enough to allow you to do the workout. I was a big fan of workouts like this because you have to run at race pace, after fatigue has set in. 5 miles at MP after a 10 minute warmup should be a relatively easy workout, but 5 miles at MP after running for 90 - 120 minutes is a bit more difficult. Increase the length of the MP on the back end and reduce the amount of time spent running easy on the front end, or break it up into segments.Basically, you are looking for successive approximation. You try different ways to get closer and closer to the performance goal or effort (without neglecting the adaptation/recovery aspect) - tweaking the variables of distance and pace. *I never understood the math/magic of LSD runs + recent PRs, equated to some performance in the marathon.

angryjohnny wrote:

angry willy wrote:

I would do very similar training to what you are doing, especially the longer runs at MP.

I think there is a lot of benefit to longer runs at marathon pace (up to about 16 miles or so), but I don't know anyone who does or recommends anything close to 22 at MP. That just seems insane to me.

Dude you run too fast in training. I can't believe you ran 22 at MP but couldn't do 26 in a race. I'm no coach or anything but I had a 4 year string of sub3 marathons at an advanced age and my long runs were only around 7:30-8 min pace. I never did anything at MP except a 2 mile practice during race week. Save that MP stuff for race day. Speed work once a week, easy high volume and taper magic is all you need. You are in effect racing all the time and the body can't take it.

Negativesplitter wrote:

Dude you run too fast in training. I can't believe you ran 22 at MP but couldn't do 26 in a race. I'm no coach or anything but I had a 4 year string of sub3 marathons at an advanced age and my long runs were only around 7:30-8 min pace. I never did anything at MP except a 2 mile practice during race week. Save that MP stuff for race day. Speed work once a week, easy high volume and taper magic is all you need. You are in effect racing all the time and the body can't take it.

This^^

But you do need some MP runs, just not 22 miles at one time.

angry willy: you have argued my case much better than I have. I have always subscribed to the concept that you present above. The body needs to adapt to the specific goal--it needs to "know" what that MP feels like, not just in a sampling or a nutshell, but in a more realistic manner.

While I appreciate all of the comments here, I reiterate that at no time in training did I ever feel "used up" or that I had emptied the tank on a faster long run. We had some bad heat and humidity over the summer, and that was rough. However, in the last two months of my training--when I was doing those faster long runs--I felt like a new man, fresh and ready to run every time.

I do not know everything abut running, but I know how my body felt. I felt fine. I also felt like I had reached a new level of fitness.

24 weeks!jesus christyou must be physically and mentally burned out. 10-12 weeks is all you need, and i think that is bordering on too long to stay focused and fired up. I do 8 weeks with a good base and series of 10k's and half marathons before i get into the marathon stuff. my best marathon was on 7 weeks of marathon specific where i wasn't even sure i would do the race. no anxiety or stress about "am i resting/running/eating right?"

I hear you. I agree that the stress and anxiety of an approaching race is pretty intense.