Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

I agree. His reply back about his slower PR made my day. I also measure myself against David S. Pumpkins.[quote]Smoove wrote:

Other than my original post on the first or second page, I have sat back and watched this thread play out; but I have to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the David S. Pumpkins portion of it.

Geez...click on the link and look at the map.

He said he turned off at Monkton Rd. I quoted him. He said he met 2 ladies at the bridge and they told him he was going off course. Look at the bridge on the map. That's a picture of exactly where he said he went off course. It puts him ~1/4 mi off course...unless he paid no attention to the 2 ladies and kept running. It's all right there.

You can easily do a make a fairly close estimate of how much extra time he ran...simply assuming everything he said is true.

Those 32k splits are really weird. And I hadn't noticed that at 30k there were a few people within a minute of each other. 2:22:01, 2:22:21 (our guy), 2:22:41. That would have been slightly ahead of the wrong turn? I know that's a long space on a trail but when it opens up to cross Monkton Rd I'm surprised that you wouldn't have all been able to see each other. I guess if you're not looking you might not notice. And McMonagle sure had a bad patch between the half and 32k, then hammered home. So maybe he was outpacing you by the time you took the wrong turn.

Huh, no, I guess there's something wrong with the pace at 32k. Sorry--I haven't been reading this as closely as I used to. Still, I'm surprised the three of you who passed 32k within 40 s of each other wouldn't have seen each other at Monkton but maybe that's what the cop was counting on--didn't bother telling you to go straight because he assumed you'd know to do so? Although, why would a cop be stationed in a road that you're NOT crossing?

Okay, looking at the maps again. I guess you thought it was York Road?

I don't know--I'm tempted to take back my comment about getting confused in the late stages of a marathon. I don't think OP has lied but at the same time, it's pretty strange to know you're running on a trail until 25.5 miles but you turn off it at 21.5. If nothing else wouldn't you have it in mind that when you leave the trail you've got less than a mile to go?

Yes, I looked at your map. I guess I missed the part where you explain how he managed to make a wrong turn. Maybe you could repeat it, since you've clearly indicated that your map answers all possible questions.

Molkinsloth wrote:

This race has been talked about ad nauseam, but I still have no idea what police officer you are talking about. I don't remember seeing this guy. In fact, there were a couple of road crossings the last couple of miles on the rail trail with zero traffic control, which surprised me a bit.

I am getting tired of all of the explaining. I will give this one more shot, and then I do not know what else I can say in regard to the wrong turn. I have no idea why the police officer was not there when you crossed Monkton Rd. Both he and his car were there when I got to that point. I have no idea why he said nothing to me, and I was so annoyed on the way back that I shouted this very thought in his direction. If you still do not understand, Molk, you could try contacting Juda, the race director, and she will tell you how livid I was in regard to the police officer. As soon as the race was over, I told her what happened.

With regard to the two women, they were either spectators heading toward the trail intersection or they were people who were aware that there were a marathon going on in their neighborhood. They were heading toward me, and toward the trail intersection with Monkton. I was running and wearing a bib, and the trail, for them, was straight ahead. This race has been held for years, and so it is not surprising that people would know that a race were going on.

No need to show any work, David--I believe you, and I think your analysis is compelling. As I have said: a good shot at a PR, but it did not seem to me that I would have gotten under 3:00.

Things just don't add up here.

You can have all of your jokes and "translations," but anyone who knows anything about running knows that no training plan is perfect. The best plan is one created by someone that knows a lot about running AND a lot about you (the runner). Also, what if only x number of weeks are available before goal race y, but the plan calls for z number of weeks? Likewise, what if the plan calls for a half marathon four weeks before the marathon, yet you (the actual living, breathing runner) can only plan for a race that is either three weeks or five weeks apart from the marathon?

darkwave wrote:

Meh - given how long this has gone on, I thought it was on target. And funny.

If you think the thread is too long, then why are you making it longer by posting in it?

What do you mean? The policeman no other runners saw? The turn nobody else missed? The two kindly old ladies who just happened to be out for a walk and were intimate of the details of the course?

I think the guy just needed to take a dump.

Er... wrote:

Yes, I looked at your map. I guess I missed the part where you explain how he managed to make a wrong turn. Maybe you could repeat it, since you've clearly indicated that your map answers all possible questions.

My fault. Sorry to be unclear. I was just making two points...neither of which was meant to answer how he managed to make a wrong turn:

1) The road he turned onto looks absolutely nothing like a rail trail. Not that he is lying...it's only to point out that it's even harder to understand how he went off course when you see what road he ended up on.

2) He could have only lost ~2 minutes since he added

I brushed over the entire thread but got the impression that some felt he could have broken 3:02 or even 3:00...when, in fact, it is virtually certain...based on exactly what said...that he would not have broken 3:05. I thought it would be helpful to quantify exactly how far off course he actually went.

Sorry if I am repeating something that was already covered.

yes_indeed wrote:

No help wrote:

It's strange that those 2 runners that were pretty close behind you according to the splits didn't say anything to you when you missed the turn.

Indeed. No one said anything, in fact. Not even the police officer who was there to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

I love a good fraud story, but this isn't one of them. The claims are too consistent. Op is so hard headed, lacking a little oxygen, things probably get weird in his head.

At least in my area, pd are not course marshals.

Best case for a "liar liar pants on fire" a bunch of little lies.

I still want to know if there was a bunch of tree cover near the "wrong turn" and onto the finish.

We both know this isn't what you're talking about when you say your training plan is in place and you're hoping to "tweak it" based on JD reading.

outsiderunner wrote:

darkwave wrote:

Meh - given how long this has gone on, I thought it was on target. And funny.

If you think the thread is too long, then why are you making it longer by posting in it?

Prompted by this thread I read JD again in the past couple of days and while an interesting read, I wouldn't base my training - or yours - on it. There are a few good alternatives, some even mentioned in this thread, IIRC.

For you specifically I would suggest Brad Hudson's Run Faster - From the 5K to the Marathon (2008) instead. It seems to me that you prefer to think and make your plans yourself rather than blindly following plans given by others.

Hudson's whole idea of 'adaptive training' is based on giving you the means to devise your own plan, rather than prescribing one; and on making you change the plan all the time, not only in case of a cold/injury/bad weather - but also based on what you feel, day by day, that works for you and what doesn't.

Wannabe coach wrote:

Prompted by this thread I read JD again in the past couple of days and while an interesting read, I wouldn't base my training - or yours - on it. There are a few good alternatives, some even mentioned in this thread, IIRC.

For you specifically I would suggest Brad Hudson's Run Faster - From the 5K to the Marathon (2008) instead. It seems to me that you prefer to think and make your plans yourself rather than blindly following plans given by others.

Hudson's whole idea of 'adaptive training' is based on giving you the means to devise your own plan, rather than prescribing one; and on making you change the plan all the time, not only in case of a cold/injury/bad weather - but also based on what you feel, day by day, that works for you and what doesn't.

NO. This guy likes to hammer out 22-24 milers at MP. He doesn't like to run like a 'wuss.'

If you want to determine the exact spot of the timing mat, you should try Strava. A number have participants (including Molk) have uploaded their race to Strava.

Concerning outsiderunner's story. I believe him.

But I have to admit there are quite some curious circumstances. The wrong turn, the GPS signal, the police officer... Outsiderunner should be happy that this is just about a stupid marathon and he isn't involved in a murder case. I can see how a story like this one could lead to a wrongful conviction.

Wannabe coach wrote:

Prompted by this thread I read JD again in the past couple of days and while an interesting read, I wouldn't base my training - or yours - on it. There are a few good alternatives, some even mentioned in this thread, IIRC.

For you specifically I would suggest Brad Hudson's Run Faster - From the 5K to the Marathon (2008) instead. It seems to me that you prefer to think and make your plans yourself rather than blindly following plans given by others.

Hudson's whole idea of 'adaptive training' is based on giving you the means to devise your own plan, rather than prescribing one; and on making you change the plan all the time, not only in case of a cold/injury/bad weather - but also based on what you feel, day by day, that works for you and what doesn't.

This is very constructive, Wannabe coach, and I thank you for the book suggestion. I am interested in comparing Hudson's approach to that of JD. On the surface, Hudson's approach seems appropriate...and suited toward me. Yes, I would rather have a certain amount of control over my plan and day-to-day training, as opposed to blindly following a generic plan.

All the best to you...

The NCR trail is in somewhat of a valley, and there is some tree cover at the turn that takes you to the finish. My watch had no issues with the signal. As gregxc pointed out, go to Strava...my run in on there. GPS watches act wonky sometimes, and that's not the point here. outsiderunner ran the full course (plus a little extra). His biggest problem is that he can't accept the one common thread in all of his "misfortunes" ~ himself. He is constantly blaming everything and everyone, except himself. Every race time has an asterisk beside it b/c of some circumstance. I was sitting in the gym at the finish of the NCR race, and he comes in and just starts unloading on the race directors. Pretty poor sportsmanship, IMO. The person responsible for the wrong turn was him. Not the cop, not anything else. As was pointed out, I've never run a race where a cop directing traffic was also a course marshal. He would do well to take a step back from all of this, and take a look in the mirror.