Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

Thanks...

Perhaps what gets to me most is that I gave up so much--sacrificed so much--for this one race. I really, really sweated for this one. All this for 3:04? To not "cash in" in New York leaves me with an empty feeling. It will be hard to get over. I say this also because I am not getting any younger. I will be 48 in two months. I started running in my 40s, and I feel the clock ticking, so to speak.

I am glad, though, that there is this some good news: my legs feel significantly better this morning. I am surprised by the improvement. Still some soreness, but much better.

Er... wrote:

I don't know if you're becoming sarcastic and belligerent or you're starting your own pity party.

Many people here--including me--have commended you enthusiastically on a great race on a difficult course. You asked for opinions and the consensus seems to be that:

1. Another marathon on 11/20 would be unwise

2. You may have overtrained for this one, especially with that 22-miler and sub-marathon pace

3. You should revisit your pace, especially for longer runs, as you gear up maybe for a spring half and a fall 2017 marathon?

Nobody said you were terrible at training or racing. You asked advice so we gave it.

outsiderunner wrote:

I guess I am terrible at training and have become terrible at racing now, too.

No sarcasm at all. I have been thanking everyone for the input, and I mean it sincerely. I am also sincere in saying that there may be a bit of pity, as I sacrificed to so much for NYC, but mostly I am sad...or perhaps melancholy would be a more accurate term.

outsiderunner wrote:

Thanks...

Perhaps what gets to me most is that I gave up so much--sacrificed so much--for this one race. I really, really sweated for this one. All this for 3:04? To not "cash in" in New York leaves me with an empty feeling. It will be hard to get over.

It's okay to be disappointed for a few days. We've all been there. For me it was Boston 2014, my fourth marathon. I went in very fit looking to run 2:50. I was on pace through halfway and then had a complete meltdown. I ended up walking most of the way from Heartbreak to Boylston to finish in 3:21 (21 minutes over my PR at the time). I was crushed. But I learned a lot that day and failure is an incredibly powerful motivator. I regrouped, adjusted my training, and built off the fitness on which I had failed to capitalize in the race. Since then my next four marathons have all been in the 2:40s, with each getting progressively faster until last Sunday. Now I have more knowledge and yet another setback to propel me through the next race -- Boston 2017 -- where I intend to finish what I started in back in 2014.

Interesting story, angryjohnny.

What adjustments did you make that made you successful? Would I benefit from the same (or similar) adjustments?

All the best to you...

1. Slowly increased peak mileage from 70 to 110 mpw. This has probably been the most important adjustment.

2. As the race gets closer I do more marathon pace specific work, including a 13, then 15, then 17 miler at marathon pace spaced out over 6 weeks.

3. I got religious about doing track workouts every week. I mix it up but mostly do mile repeats (7-10X) with short rest and sets of 3 mile tempos (2-3X).

4. Increased my longest long run from 22 to 26. This goes against conventional wisdom but seems to have worked for me.

5. I have a more regular training partner with whom I do most hard runs now. This really helps a lot.

6. I write out a 12 week plan for every build-up that includes total mileage and two quality runs per week (similar to the Jack Daniels plan).

7. I quit worrying about pace on regular training runs.

8. I take ice baths after every long run to help me recover faster.

9. I quit drinking and try to eat better.

10. I learned to pace myself better during the race. My best races have come when I feel like I'm holding back and very comfortable through halfway. After that I will cautiously start to ease on the gas if I feel good.

11. I spend way more time looking at this stupid running website than any sane person should.

outsiderunner wrote:

Interesting story, angryjohnny.

What adjustments did you make that made you successful? Would I benefit from the same (or similar) adjustments?

All the best to you...

Obviously I'm not angryjohnny, but if you didn't start running till your 40s and this was only your second marathon, you will improve just by staying consistent and keep doing what you're doing. Learn that maybe you went out a little too fast, or maybe you didn't taper perfectly. Really nail down a nutrition strategy. If you really desperately want that PR or that sub 3 maybe consider a more local or faster (flatter, smaller) race, but you're still learning how to run the marathon. I don't doubt you'll get there if you keep doing what you're doing (absent of overdoing it and injuring yourself)

David and angry: thanks for the good advice.

In regard to nutrition, mine has been excellent for more than a decade. I follow a natural and organic diet, and I believe I eat pretty well. Trying to duplicate this in a hotel room with no refrigerator was very difficult.

I was referring more to the in-race fueling when I mentioned "nutrition strategy". It's probably more or less important depending on the person, but making sure you avoid cramps, bonking, and indigestion can be a tricky balance.

Sounds like you had more leg pain than a true, energy-depleted bonk, but it's still a marathon-specific facet to keep in mind.

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

I was referring more to the in-race fueling when I mentioned "nutrition strategy". It's probably more or less important depending on the person, but making sure you avoid cramps, bonking, and indigestion can be a tricky balance.

Sounds like you had more leg pain than a true, energy-depleted bonk, but it's still a marathon-specific facet to keep in mind.

I agree that in-race fueling is very tricky. I've started eating gu on my long runs to prepare my stomach for what will happen during races. That seems to have helped, but I'm not sure I've ever really gotten it right. Some folks say you should not take any carbs on long runs in order to teach your body to conserve fuel and run on empty. I tend to think the best approach is somewhere in between so I will take a gu on some but not all of my long runs.

Yes, the in-race fueling can be tricky, but thankfully I have not had any stomach problems, either on long runs or in the marathon.

In regard to training, I have heard both arguments about gels, and am not sure which is correct. It probably varies from person to person. I tend to try to condition myself with less water and fewer gels when doing long runs in training. In fact, I even did some long-ish midweek runs this cycle (14-16 miles) without using any water or gels--and I felt fine afterward. Again, I thought I had "left no stone unturned" in training, but still did not perform as expected on race day. I really tried to toughen myself...and prepare myself for the worst.

Before I forget: I took three gels at Richmond (meant to do four, but dropped one along the way), and did five at NYC--one prior to the start, and then one 6, 13, 19, and 22-23. During training, I would use two gels on an 18-23 mile long run.

Since you appear to have time to post here, why don't you give us the three weeks of your training that included that 22-miler at 6:53s? Say the week before, the week of, the week after?

It doesn't sound like fueling was the issue if you were able to take all those gels without any stomach problems. I took 3 gels (6, 12, and 18) and my stomach was in knots by the top of Museum Mile. If I had to guess I would say your legs were just beat up from (1) the hilly second half of the course including some steep downhills, (2) less than ideal conditions, and (3) all of the walking/standing around before the race due to the crappy logistics of NYC.

I don't know what you did in the days before the race, but I like to take Friday off from running and knock out the expo, do a short 20 minute run on Saturday morning, and spend the rest of Saturday with my feet up watching college football. Being on your feet on Saturday can really drain you.

Yes, I had no stomach issues, and never do. The gels went down fine, as always.

Wow, I did almost the exact things you did on Fri. and Sat. Did the expo on Fri.--no running that day--and then mostly watched college football in my refrigerator-less room (or cell) on Saturday. I did travel on Fri. (via train).

Your 1, 2, and 3 points seem spot-on, especially points 2 and 3. I say this because hill training is basically a daily exercise for me. I live in a hilly area.

I really hated the walking/standing around.

Er...I will see about getting something posted about the three weeks prior to the race. Overall, I thought my taper was fine. I felt really good--and fresh--during the taper. After a high of 77 miles, I think I then had a 60-ish, a 50-ish, and a 49, 42, and 42. The 42-mile weeks felt like a vacation. I did, though, keep the tempo there, as there were so few miles. Maybe I erred a little there, but it all felt easy and good...no problems at all. In fact, I have never felt more prepared/ready for a race.

Forgot to say that I did the same type of little shake-out run you did on Sat. (in the morning). It was about 4 miles, and included some walking. I went out of my hotel and saw people running down Sixth Ave. and latched on to it. It was some type of pre-marathon 5k thing.

To put it bluntly, any non-elite who runs NYCM for anything but the experience, (and certainly not the time) is a fool.

Go get some shorter distance PRs with your new fitness level (you were in fact probably in mid-2:50's shape on a flat course with no wind). Next year run a fast course like Chicago and hope the weather is good. If you don't have the patience and ability to learn from your mistakes you are in the wrong game.

You are blunt but wise.

What you have said is what I have gleaned from my NYCM experience: it is for elites, and the rest should run "for the experience" (whatever that means).

To me, a marathon is a marathon. I do not need the "experience." It is over-rated anyway, as the logistics were lacking. I train for a purpose, and I race for a purpose. I train hard and precisely, and I expect results. Until this point, I have gotten results (i.e. have always been faster in the race than in training).

It may sound like heresy, but my overall view of the NYCM is negative. I will probably not run it again, even though I qualified on Sunday. If I do run it again, it would be for "revenge."

I would rather train hard and perform well. That is what I find interesting and meaningful.

Yes, I think I was in 2:55 shape.

We ran the last ~3 miles of the course from 107th to the finish line. We passed Meb, Ghebreslassie, and several other elites jogging in the park. That was one of the coolest parts of the whole weekend and was totally unexpected.

Your mileage is still low. That's probably another big reason why your legs hurt at the end. I think you will gain a lot if you can up your mileage and keep it up for several weeks and until closer to the race.

I did not see any of the elites on Sat., but a guy at the start was telling me how he saw Shalane in the park.

outsiderunner wrote:

I did not see any of the elites on Sat., but a guy at the start was telling me how he saw Shalane in the park.

outsiderunner,

I ran NYC 3 times.

With a 1:33 half PR I managed 3:50 the first year, 3:40 the next.

With a 1:26 half PR I managed 3:16 on, granted, low mileage.

It's a tough course. The bridges, the hills, the wind, the concrete, and the long wait at the start all take a toll.

I'm a NYC resident, and even for us, it just isn't natural or easy.

Not trying to give you excuses, but just reiterating the point that it's not a "normal" race and better left for experiences.

I'm in 1:23 half shape now and would not be close to breaking 3 in NY. My advice like others is to give it another shot in the spring (despite your reserves against training in winter) especially if you can get yourself in 2:55 (6:40 M-pace) shape, to avoid being too close / on the cusp.

You did amazing in that marathob. Don't drive yourself nuts!