Help a 31 y.o. marathoner get better at the 5k

2 things. First, your improvement over the past 4 years at this age is incredible. I'm guessing you didn't run in HS/college. Congrats on that. Second, do you ever run shorter reps? Looking at your sample weeks you don't seem to do stuff shorter than 1000s other than a day of 1/1 fartleks.

Honestly though, why do you care about getting down into the mid 15s? The marathon is your way stronger race.

Best of luck!

browski wrote:

2 things. First, your improvement over the past 4 years at this age is incredible. I'm guessing you didn't run in HS/college. Congrats on that. Second, do you ever run shorter reps? Looking at your sample weeks you don't seem to do stuff shorter than 1000s other than a day of 1/1 fartleks.

Honestly though, why do you care about getting down into the mid 15s? The marathon is your way stronger race.

Best of luck!

Hey, thanks. I'll answer in reverse. I care about my 5K PR because I'm not mentally ready to train for another marathon PR and I want to see how fast I can run at each event. I also run a lot of 5Ks for fun, most of my friends are runners, and I want to do well.

I looked back at my first period of training for my last marathon and there was some shorter stuff. Keep in mind this was early season work

-20x400 off 200 jog, 400 jog after every 5th rep (Started at 79, ran a whole lot of 76-77s, and closed with a few 73-74s)

-9x2 minute hills with full jog down recovery (averaged 5:20/mi up 2.5% incline)

-2x(800, 400, 200), 1 minute rest between each I think. 2:25, 69, 34, 2:26, 71, 35

-fartlek 6' @ 5:45, 6' jog, 5' @ 5:35, 5' jog, 4' @ 5:25, 4' jog, 3' @ 5:15, 3' jog, 2' @ 5:00, 2' jog, 1' @ 4:45, 1' jog

- 11x800 off 2' jog (Started easy ~2:55. finished with 2:25. Probably averaged around 2:40 in hot weather)

- 6x1 mile off 2:30 jog (5:13, 5:08, 5:03, 5:02, 4:56, 4:55 )

There were two other 1'/1' fartleks in there without recorded paces, and I've left out the longer workouts that happened along the way. All of the above happened in about a 6 week period but were phased out later on. I also ran several 5K races in this time, but it's not even worth looking at times because we're talking about summer in the south.

If you've run 2:28, why do you care about 15:30 instead of 14:30?

I have run 2:31 and my 5K PR is 14:20. I am more proud of my 14:20 and wouldn't be happy with a marathon above 2:16.

I am honestly surprised that you have not run faster.

How long is your rest between the 1000s when you run them at 3:05? I would try to scale the rest back to 2:00 if you are doing much more than that.

I would also consider increasing the length of your vo2max intervals. My take is that 100m is about the bare minimum you should be doing, and that getting in 1200s and 1600s (with say 3:00 and 3:30 rest in between, respectively) would help.

I would also make sure that all of your rest on the vo2max intervals consisted of jogging, not standing around. Say jog 400 in between 1000s, 600 in between 1200s and 600-800 in between 1600s; making the entire workout a nearly continuous effort.

It could just be that you are not mentally used to hurting the way a 5k makes you hurt. The best way to get used to that is hurting during your workouts, and the longer the intervals, the more they hurt.

Finally, if you don't have a marathon on the horizon, consider adjusting your schedule for a couple of months so that you will get in one vo2max session per week instead of one every two weeks as you appear to be doing now.

The best guess is that you have never learned how to sprint. Try this:

"Improving basic speed is fairly simple. The scenario I've seen many times is this. Let me introduce you to runner "Joe."

Joe is 27 years old, was decent but no better in H.S., tried to make the cross-country/track team at the local university but was unsuccessful. Joe ran 10:00 in the 3200 in H.S., and now runs local road races with an average 5k of 17:30. Joe runs about 40 miles a week and does intervals in the form of 800m and mile repeats in fartlek form with the local club.

Joe can no longer come close to a 10:00 3200. He can't do this because 5:00 for the mile is all he can muster. An 800m in 2:20 is a race for him.

Joe has 2 big problems that are equally important to address 1) Lack of mileage, 2) No speed. Joe, however has decided he wants some more success and is willing to work for it.

I look at his recent mileage and plot out a course for raising it. We go to the track and warm-up etc. and I put him through a small true speed workout. I have him run what I call an "accela 200." He starts out at mile race pace and builds speed over 200 meters until the last 20-30 are full out. This is always the final component of the warm-up and the beginning of the workout on a true speed day.

Because he has not done any true speed work since high school he will run 1 or 2 200s. I give him 5 minutes recovery and explain that he will run this next 200 as fast as possible while staying relaxed. He jogs into it with a raised hand, which is dropped when the 200 start is reached. As the hand drops I click my watch and observe. The effort to relax is apparent but he is not relaxed and isn't generating a lot of power. The time is 29.3. He walks a bit, jogs a 600 back to the start where I meet him and ask how he is feeling etc (rest was about 8 min). We decide to do another one. Same procedure, 29.7.

I let him know that he will be sore etc. but that his speed will improve. This workout is repeated once a week with the number of 200s increased to 5 after the accela 200. The recovery is whatever is necessary (within reason) to be ready to go again. Usually starts at about 8 minutes and drops to 5 minutes after a couple months. It is never reduced to less then 5.

Joe's progression.

Week 1: 29.3, 29.7

Week 2: 28.8, 28.5, 29.1

Week 3: 28.5, 28.4, 28.6, 28.8

Week 4: 28.1, 28.0, 28.3, 28.3, 29.2

Week 5: 28.2, 28.5, 28.4, 28.5, 28.4

Week 6: 27.7, 27.6, 28.0, 28.1, 27.3

(Finally gets around to buying a pair of spikes to use instead of road flats. The last 200 of week 6 was run in spikes. Joe put them on for strides 2 times during the week. He has not been sore so the last 3 will be run in spikes on week 7. Week 8 will be completely in spikes.)

Week 7: 27.5, 27.6, 27.0, 26.8, 26.6

Week 8: 26.9, 26.5, 26.4, 26.7, 26.2

Week 9: 26.3, 26.1, 26.0, 26.6, 25.9

Week 10:25.9, 26.3, 26.1, 25.9, 25.8

(During this time mileage was raised from 40-70)

This Joe levels off about here, two Joes I have coached progressed to the mid 24's, another is currently at about week 6. All Joes increased their mileage and threshold running and dropped up there 5k times substantially--and didn't get outkicked at the end. In less than a year Joe is now running 15:30 for 5k and 4:28 for a mile.

FOR MOST SPEED IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

If muscle imbalances are present drills are introduced to correct them. Usually the speed will fix them if it is run relaxed. Drills and plyos can be helpful but usually distract from the speed and a loss of specificity is incurred. Ability for 400 meter usually starts at 61-62 and drops to 53-55.

Don't over complicate things. Don't excessively worry about drills and form. Just do it and do it relaxed. Devote 1 workout a week to speed until you start to level off. After you level off finish 1 to 2 workouts per week with 1-2 fast 200s. For most people that is enough to maintain speed and some see continued improvement.

I like 200s because those are short enough to sprint but long enough to focus on relaxation.

are these real numbers from a real Joe? I find it fascinating.

It's true I have never learned how to sprint. I did a lot more rep-paced work in the end of 2015 but my fastest 200 ever was 32.x. I can run 33s pretty reliably. I have read that C&P'd post before and considered doing it, but I wondered if devoting a workout each week to sprints would hurt my aerobic maintenance.

Thanks for this. There are a couple things that stand out to me.

My rest for 1k repeats is usually 2:00, I do the Daniels method of 50-90% of the work time. That particular workout averaging 3:05 was my best 1k workout ever, and probably not something I could do every week without more practice.

I also jog all of my recoveries. I was wondering if that was a problem because I'm not going into the next rep as fresh as I could be. Typically I'm doing about 6:40-7:00 pace which feels really easy after 5:00.

I think you're right that I'm not mentally used to 5K pain. I'm only really comfortable hitting that pain level near the end of a race or workout, and I don't think I've ever let myself get there before the last 2 reps.

You might be right that I should be focusing on 1k-1600 reps. I was kind of leaning towards shorter stuff so that I could build up my speed hoping that it would make 5k pace feel easier by comparison.

Forgot to mention in my last post, but any tips on a warm up routine? I think my biggest weakness is that I can't run goal pace for any workout until the 2nd half, and given that a 5k is pretty high intensity the only warm up I can think of is a few 400s or 800s ahead of time, but I know that is probably going to tire me out. I usually do 2 minutes at tempo pace along with 4 strides, but I don't think that's been enough.

that is great talent and great durability.

so you'll probably have more luck if you do 3 things:

1and 2. 1x per week do a "mile pace" workout or 3k/5k workout in addition to a tempo each week. you need to get more comfortable at faster speeds. alternate each week (either mile pace or 5k work) and closer to a 5k peak race (2-3 weeks), focus on the mile and 5k work and drop tempo... careful with 3k work, it can absolutely fry a slow twitch marathoner. that said, you'll probably be doing the 1st few weeks at 3k effort to try and run some 600s to 1ks at say 73sec/400m to just get out there and get in some speed. "mile pace" try for relaxed fast 200s and 300s at first. use more rest! like 3:1 rest:work for mile pace and up to 1:1 for 5k/3k. you need/want speed. build up to longer intervals for 5k work over time.

3. train with a group for fast work if you can. that will help.

keep the long run and occasional moderate runs/progression runs and your marathon won't suffer when you go back to it, especially if you keep your mileage up. maybe 80-90 range? whatever feels good and yet you can still get those faster workout times to drop. with a build to longer 5k intervals (4x1mile, 4-5x1200m, whatever) and 2-3 practice 3k and 5k races (you might want to even try a mile race to just to get that raw lung feeling), you should get a good 5k in.

hjlh wrote:

3. train with a group for fast work if you can. that will help.

This.