ran first marathon - missed bq - key workouts to add for next one?

2, 3, 4, and 6 Mile repeats at half marathon pace with (3:00-5:00) recovery. 4 x 2 mile, 3 x 3 Mile, 2 x 4 mile, 2 x 6 Mile, etc.

Long runs up to 24-26 Miles really helped me mentally at the end of races. Long runs with various paces really helps as well. 3 Miles easy 2 miles at Marathon pace in a 20 Mile long run.

Maybe some 20-22 Milers with the first 15 easy and last 5 miles at marathon pace.

HMArunner wrote:

2, 3, 4, and 6 Mile repeats at half marathon pace with (3:00-5:00) recovery. 4 x 2 mile, 3 x 3 Mile, 2 x 4 mile, 2 x 6 Mile, etc.

Long runs up to 24-26 Miles really helped me mentally at the end of races. Long runs with various paces really helps as well. 3 Miles easy 2 miles at Marathon pace in a 20 Mile long run.

Maybe some 20-22 Milers with the first 15 easy and last 5 miles at marathon pace.

no. OP is just getting (re)started, he doesn't need that level of training. he can't, actually.

I bet you will improve just by virtue of having another training cycle and modestly upping the miles.

I would also increase the MP runs. 9 miles is solid, but I think you can go up to 14 or 15 or so.

fffdsfdfd wrote:

I bet you will improve just by virtue of having another training cycle and modestly upping the miles.

I would also increase the MP runs. 9 miles is solid, but I think you can go up to 14 or 15 or so.

Yes to this. Just keep putting in the training. Keep your program very similar, but do a teeny bit more in each of the key areas (total mileage, long run mileage, MP mileage).

Also, tell us more on the blow up. What does it mean nutrition was fine but you were maybe dehydrated? And how bad was this, what was your final time?

caphillrunner wrote:

I'm 35, 6'0, 173. Former D1 that was retired from 2002 - 2014.

Ran my first marathon 2 weeks ago (~700 ft net downhill). Goal marathon pace was 7:04. Came through half at 1:32 then blew up at mile 19. Nutrition wasn't a factor; though hydration might have contributed to the bonk.

Peaked at 58 miles during training (2 20 milers, 1 19, 1 18) over an abbreviated 14 week plan. All those efforts were slow - so no long run fast finishes. Followed a modified Higdon Advanced 2 plan; included Yasso 800s (maxed at 8), hill repeats, tempos and MP work (maxed at 9 miles).

Planning to run REVEL mt charleston late April for next one to try and BQ (sub 3:10). Probably will up mileage to peak at 70; focus on long run fast finishes. What else should I think about including?

Just keep training and 70 mpw vs 58 should get you there.

keepgoing wrote:

Yes to this. Just keep putting in the training. Keep your program very similar, but do a teeny bit more in each of the key areas (total mileage, long run mileage, MP mileage).

Also, tell us more on the blow up. What does it mean nutrition was fine but you were maybe dehydrated? And how bad was this, what was your final time?

Sure. Nutrition wise, got down clif blok shots as planned at miles 4,8,12,16,20. I don't think the blow up was related to a lack of glycogen.

As far as hydration; I trained all summer in the washington dc swamp. On race day, temps were low 50s, no humidity. Sweat rate was minimal and got fooled into take minimal fluids per aid station (probably ~2 ounces). Went against my own advice of walking through each pit stop.

Blow up was bad. Final time: 3:49

Splits:

M1 - M12: 7:00 avg

M13: 6:59

M14: 6:58

M15: 6:53

M16: 7:08

M17: 7:28

M18: 7:52

M19: 8:27

M20: 9:17

M21: 10:07

M22: 11:44

M23: 12:53

M24: 12:52

M25: 14:43

M26: 14:35

caphillrunner wrote:

Blow up was bad. Final time: 3:49

Splits:

M1 - M12: 7:00 avg

M13: 6:59

M14: 6:58

M15: 6:53

M16: 7:08

M17: 7:28

M18: 7:52

M19: 8:27

M20: 9:17

M21: 10:07

M22: 11:44

M23: 12:53

M24: 12:52

M25: 14:43

M26: 14:35

That's the textbook definition of blowing up. Good work.

Those look like some rough final miles. Nice work gutting it out.

Perhaps hydration was a big factor (I'm a fan of walking through the drink stops, too).

If that is the case, I do really think just hitting the hydration better and getting more overall miles in between now and April will be big.

Were you a 1500 runner in college?

What did you do during 2015?

I hear you loud and clear on the nutrition issue, but I still cannot get my mind around that drop off and your use of the word "bonk" without thinking that nutrition may have been an issue. I suppose it could have been dehydration too, but that looks like glycogen depletion to me, especially if you weren't cramping up. You are a little bit bigger than the average marathoner, so maybe your intake just wasn't enough.

Anyway, on to the question that you actually asked, I would agree with folks who suggested more long runs and longer durations at marathon pace. I also thing that the 30%+ jump in mileage and having this stretch of training under your belt as a base will make a huge difference the next time around.

A few additional suggestions:

1. Next time around, try to get in as many runs as possible of 70 minutes or more. If you are running 16 miles easy over 2 days, instead of running 8 and 8, run it 6 and 10. This should help your body in adapting from switching between sources of glycogen while running (which happens at about the 1 hour mark) and drawing upon those different sources. Having efficient pathways is a pretty big key.

2. Consider doing quite a bit of your work at tempo pace. I found that doing sessions of 3 x 10 minutes at tempo pace with 2 minutes rest in between was a great marathon workout for me. Even being relatively untrained, that should be something that you should be able to handle with your base level of talent. I would also give some consideration to working tempo paced bouts into your long runs from time to time - maybe once every 3 or 4 weeks.

Hats down for walking last 4 miles and not quitting.

If you reach 70 miles on average per week and keep it like that for 2 months, you'll get there.

And is no need to run 20+ miles runs. But you need long duration efforts, for mind. Maybe once a week you could do a long bike ride instead of running. Something of over 3-4 hours.

ijsdg87356 wrote:

Were you a 1500 runner in college?

What did you do during 2015?

College: XC, in/out 800m

Started out 2015 at 220lbs. First race May 2015 was a 58+ 10K.

November 2015 down to 185, raced 19:56 5K and 41+ 10K.

caphillrunner wrote:

ijsdg87356 wrote:

Were you a 1500 runner in college?

What did you do during 2015?

College: XC, in/out 800m

Started out 2015 at 220lbs. First race May 2015 was a 58+ 10K.

November 2015 down to 185, raced 19:56 5K and 41+ 10K.

It sounds like your progression back is still, well, progressing. Keep riding it.

This fall you might want to think about jumping into some 5 or 10k races. There is a really good chance you could crush those 2015 times.

Huge amounts of progress to come in the next few years.

The question you need to think about is why the marathon?

Anyone who had anything to do with the 800 at a D1 school is most likely going to struggle with bonking running the marathon. I don't mean to say you can't figure it out, but my guess is you would be better off only running one marathon a year. The rest of the year, focus on the 5k.

keepgoing wrote:

It sounds like your progression back is still, well, progressing. Keep riding it.

This fall you might want to think about jumping into some 5 or 10k races. There is a really good chance you could crush those 2015 times.

Thanks. Yeah - plan is to focus on 5k/10k training/racing this fall before beginning another cycle. I like where you head's at.

Appreciate all the input. Will definitely incorporate some of these workouts.

Jesus christ, talking about going home devastated...

ijsdg87356 wrote:

Huge amounts of progress to come in the next few years.

The question you need to think about is why the marathon?

Anyone who had anything to do with the 800 at a D1 school is most likely going to struggle with bonking running the marathon. I don't mean to say you can't figure it out, but my guess is you would be better off only running one marathon a year. The rest of the year, focus on the 5k.

Like all great ideas, my wife first brought up the idea of trying to BQ together. I'm pretty sure marathoning won't be put to bed until we do.

My take, based on the very sharp fall off from 17 miles onwards is that you were aiming for a finish time 15 or 20 minutes beyond your actual capability, and crashed hard because the pace was way too hot. I'm guessing your half marathon race speed isn't much faster than 1:32.

Do a half five to seven weeks out from your next marathon and then use that to set your goal pace. Don't use an arbitrary BQ time. There is no such thing as race day magic. Take your half time, double it, and add ten to fifteen minutes for your goal marathon time. Or use a conservative online race projection calculator. Most are way too optimistic.

2 x 6 miles at half marathon pace with 5 minutes between? That's ridiculous.

[quote]HMArunner wrote:

2, 3, 4, and 6 Mile repeats at half marathon pace with (3:00-5:00) recovery. 4 x 2 mile, 3 x 3 Mile, 2 x 4 mile, 2 x 6 Mile, etc.

[quote]