Could an elite steepler run a sub-4:00 mile over the barriers and water pit?

Only one way to find out...

in a cakewalk wrote:

Kid, the fun thing about "language" is that different "words" can be used to communicate the same thing. If everyone knows what someone was saying, your "correction" only makes you look foolish.

You can use "quotes" all you want, doesn't make you seem any "smarter".

Yes, everybody knows what het means with 'steeples', but that's despite this word, not because he playfully chose a word that means the same as what he meant to say.

In the beginning people raced to the 'steeple', a church on a small hill. They typically chose the shortest route to get there, jumping over any hedges, water and other obstacles they encountered.

Calling those obstacles steeples is just plain wrong.

Why is it so hard to just acknowledge that, instead of stupidly making up excuses?

One thing nobody is mentioning is that running sub 59 second pace vs 64's bring on significantly more lactic acid. Ironically the 3000m steeplechase because of all the jumping brings on roughly the same amount of lactic you would produce in a flat 1500m race.

So now you are running faster which is naturally raising the lactic accumulation and jumping it will have a compounding effect.

NoWAY

Jerry Maguire wrote:

NoWAY

NoWAY is a beautiful country.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

The 400m race is 91.98% slower over hurdles. But there are also 10 of them.

Your really bad at math. How is the 400IM 91.98% slower than the flat 400m?

Hadn't seen that before Fascinating. Thanks for post it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca5zZGBdJw8

And that last mile was full of ridiculous crazy surges.

So, these guys can (a) open a race in 4:16, throw down ridiculous jousting surges, and finish in 8:04, and (b) do four laps, over barriers, to finish an 8:04 race, in 4:16. (Obviously we know there is ~2-3s for the 9 meters and inside water jump.)

If you don't think these guys, fresh and racing for their lives, could have done 4:00 for a mile over barriers that day, please present an argument.

Interesting question.

Very roughly (stress - very):

Shaheen ran 7:53 the year he ran 7:34 for the flat 3k.

That is a slowdown of 4.2%

Apply to a theoretical mile PR of 3:50;

3:59.7

So potentially, yes.

Personally I think Jager could do it. Likely a sub 3:50 miler/8:00 steeple on his day.

However I feel a miler would have a much better chance than a steepler at breaking 4:00 for the mile steeplechase. 3:45 or faster gives a hell of a lot of room for poor technique. Guerrouj also ran a 7:23 for the flat 3k.

NOT EVEN CLOSE.

15 barriers, 4 water jumps in a mile SC. That's 19. Saif is the ONLY one, who'd even be remotely close.

No way.... wrote:

NOT EVEN CLOSE.

15 barriers, 4 water jumps in a mile SC. That's 19. Saif is the ONLY one, who'd even be remotely close.

And Boulami the WR holder.

I think you have a good take on this, but using PR's, Shaheehn ran a 3:33.51, so his slowdown was a little more than you are calculating. And yeah, you have to think ElG could have done this. Even if he was penalized 0.75 seconds for 19 barriers, he still comes in at 3:57.25

malmo wrote:

please explain wrote:

Well, if Malmo says it can't be done, than it can't be done. A guy who never broke 4 and isn't even in the top 3500 steeple times certainly should be considered the top expert in the field!

I was 23rd all-time before. That's a hell of a lot higher than you'll ever be.

Out of curiosity, what's the fastest you ever finished a steeplechase?

old walker wrote:

Hadn't seen that before Fascinating. Thanks for post it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca5zZGBdJw8

And that last mile was full of ridiculous crazy surges.

So, these guys can (a) open a race in 4:16, throw down ridiculous jousting surges, and finish in 8:04, and (b) do four laps, over barriers, to finish an 8:04 race, in 4:16. (Obviously we know there is ~2-3s for the 9 meters and inside water jump.)

If you don't think these guys, fresh and racing for their lives, could have done 4:00 for a mile over barriers that day, please present an argument.

That race is so effing good.

MarathonMind wrote:

I think you have a good take on this, but using PR's, Shaheehn ran a 3:33.51, so his slowdown was a little more than you are calculating.

PRs aren't the whole truth always. El G was clearly better than 7:23 for 3000 for example. More like 7:20ish.

bobkbo wrote:

MarathonMind wrote:

I think you have a good take on this, but using PR's, Shaheehn ran a 3:33.51, so his slowdown was a little more than you are calculating.

PRs aren't the whole truth always. El G was clearly better than 7:23 for 3000 for example. More like 7:20ish.

Shaheen was a lot better than his flat PRs, possibly could have knocked more time off his steeplechase record too

I agree with most in the thread, only Shaheen would be close. Maybe it's easier/less impeding to hurdle the barriers going at a faster pace though?

World record 2000m steeple by the Frenchman is 5:10. That's 62 seconds per lap. His 3k steeple pr is 8:01 (?)

Pretty sure Kemboi jager and kipruto could go 5:05- 5:08 now on a good day for 2k. so 61-61.5 secs per lap.

Pretty sure they could run close to 60 secs per lap on a mile steeple all out. But a sub 4 may be hard - if there there is enough incentive/cash and competitions... then maybe in a years time?

in a cakewalk wrote:

Let's add some actual facts.

Shaheen vs Kemboi at worlds, 2003.

Shaheen opens with 4:16 for four laps, running all alone.

Kemboi hits four laps to go at 3:48. 8:04 finishing time.

CLOSES a 8:04 steeplechase with 4:16 for four laps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca5zZGBdJw8

And that last mile was full of ridiculous crazy surges.

So, these guys can (a) open a race in 4:16, throw down ridiculous jousting surges, and finish in 8:04, and (b) do four laps, over barriers, to finish an 8:04 race, in 4:16. (Obviously we know there is ~2-3s for the 9 meters and inside water jump.)

If you don't think these guys, fresh and racing for their lives, could have done 4:00 for a mile over barriers that day, please present an argument.

3,000m is less than 2 miles and 16 seconds is a long way

barrierphobic wrote:

Out of curiosity, what's the fastest you ever finished a steeplechase?

I have no idea since every track was different steeplechase splits didn't mean anything, except in European meets, where they gave 1000m splits. While they always paid in $USD they didn't give splits in 'Merican.

Since every steeplchase I ever ran I took it out hard from the beginning, so I doubt the last lap would be very fast. I can think of only one sc race where I ran flat-out from 300m out, got pipped by Dinwoody right at the line. Perhaps 60-61, I don't know.

Steeplechase: The etymology:

The name originated in fox hunting, which was popular among the country gentry for centuries. A fox is released into the fields, then chased by hounds and riders on horses. The hunt itself is called "the chase". Got it? One day, in 1752, to settle a bet, two horsemen in Ireland decided to simply race over the countryside from point-to-point, one town to the next, jumping over fences, hedgerows and creeks. They used church steeples for visual orientation, since they were the highest landmarks that could be seen from a distance as they galloped through fields, trees and undergrowth.

By the 1790s organized multihorse events were being conducted by the gentry, and this is the earliest known reference of the name "steeplechase" (1793). The steeplechase has remained with us to the present. The natural progression was to lay out a course in front of grandstands so that people could view the races, and, of course, drink and wager money. Drinking, gambling and debauchery – not much has changed in the sporting world, has it?

One day in 1860, perhaps fueled by whimsical banter at the local pub, some knuckleheads at Oxford University decided it would be fun for humans to run the steeplechase. So they organized cross country steeplechases. By 1865 it became a track event, and has been included in the modern Olympics from the beginning. If you search the archives you can find photographic images of those early races.

In some places, we still run cross country races over hay bales to simulate those original cross country races at Oxford. Societal regression continued to this day, and now the knuckleheads at the local pub decided it would be fun to run a mile and drink beer – the birth of the Beer Mile.

The term “steeplechase” in track and field is nothing more than an etymological vestige from the original lexeme. There are no “steeples” in the steeplechase. Neither horses nor humans have ever jumped over “steeples.” There is nothing pedantic about illuminating these facts, and no ambiguity in the term. Learn your history, or be a fool. That’s your choice.

In one of the great coincidences of all time, Chick Hislop of Weber State, who, as a coach specialized in coaching the steeplechase, shares the same surname as steeplechase horse racing historian John Hislop. Hmmmmm.

Wow wouldn't have anticipated what I put to motion by referring the barriers as steeples..

Thanks malmo for your original correction. It actually made me laugh out loud, when I realised what it implies, to call them steeples :)

Then some people apparently decided to hurt their butt for me, too bad for them. But good came out of that, too: we got malmo to educate us with the history of the event, actually learned something.

As a bonus, I got a direct reply from malmo. Couldn't be happier.

P.S. In my mother tongue, the steeplechase is called "the barrier run". A basic case of lost in translation I believe, albeit a funny one.

In the meanwhile, the actual debate seems to be far from decided. I will chime my 2 cents in : I second El G as the best candidate. He would only need one steeple technique workout with a knowledgeable coach and he'd have the Kenyans beaten in technique.

Trackbot! PRs Hicham El Guerrouj