How many hard days a week?

2000diego wrote:

When training for 800m, how many workouts should I do per week? How do I fit in sprint, 400, 800, 1500, 3k, 5k and 10k pace work? Do long runs and tempos count as workouts? Should my recovery days be run at the same pace as my long run, or way slower to truly be 'recovery' pace? I would like to fit in a day of complete rest but I don't know if that is feasible.

letsrun trolls will tell you 8 hard days per week. I think realistically 2-3 hard days should be plenty of enough, which is what our high school coach made us do, and we ran decent times, although people who are far more knowledgeable and faster than me could chime in.

2000diego wrote:

When training for 800m, how many workouts should I do per week? How do I fit in sprint, 400, 800, 1500, 3k, 5k and 10k pace work? Do long runs and tempos count as workouts? Should my recovery days be run at the same pace as my long run, or way slower to truly be 'recovery' pace? I would like to fit in a day of complete rest but I don't know if that is feasible.

Definitely 8 hard days per week.

You don't fit in all those paces in one week. Here's a basic framework that works pretty well:

(1) Start out by making two workouts per week at paces that are significantly faster and significantly slower than race pace. So for the 800, that would be pure sprint work and 5k-10k pace work. Take sufficient recovery that you are not accumulating a ton of oxygen debt. For your "long run," 10 miles is sufficient, with a slightly faster finish if you can do it without wiping yourself out for the more important workouts.

(2) After several weeks, your two main workouts will move closer to race pace. So that's probably 400 pace and 1.5k-3k pace. The pure sprint work gets added on to the end of one of these workouts at a much lower, maintenance volume. You're still mostly trying to have enough recovery to avoid major oxygen debt. You might mix in some longer, very high intensity hill work in place of some of the 1.5k-3k paced work, if you have access to a good hill. You also add on a third quality day at this point. This day will be in the range of 10k to HM pace. This should be your easiest workout (e.g., 4 miles at HM pace or 4xmile at 10k pace w/ 2 minutes rest, maybe even shorter).

(3) After several more weeks, you start your specific prep. This is all about race pace running. You do one hard workout per week at race pace. For the first few weeks you can manipulate the rest so you don't get too much oxygen debt, but for 4 weeks you want to be doing these with very short recovery. The number of workouts per week at this point will depend on what you can do and still recover to really crush the race pace work. What you do those other days is relatively easy workouts at the paces that you've already been hitting. The idea there is just to maintain (it doesn't take a ton to maintain).

2000diego wrote:

When training for 800m, how many workouts should I do per week? How do I fit in sprint, 400, 800, 1500, 3k, 5k and 10k pace work? Do long runs and tempos count as workouts? Should my recovery days be run at the same pace as my long run, or way slower to truly be 'recovery' pace? I would like to fit in a day of complete rest but I don't know if that is feasible.

Are you trying something like 5+ pace work? Even Coe didn´t use always that much of different paces, especially in one week.

What 800m demands metabolically is a good anaerobic and aerobic capacity. In the base phase you try to build the capacity. That doesn´t mean reaching high lactates. The anaerobic capacity work includes strength training, short sprints and longer ones (100-150m), more relaxed sprints both with long recovery. The 800m pace could be done as a pre workout strides, and possibly afterwards.

The aerobic capacity includes all training from low intensity to high end aerobic. In the start of the training year the fastest high end work could be the 10k pace, and before you start the anaerobic and aerobic power workouts (pre season) you have progressed to some of the intervals reaching the maxVO2. Alternate the long intervals with really short ones like 200´s at mile-800m pace with about 2-3 times longer (in time) active recovery between intervals. Also could do combo work, combining the longer intervals and doing some short ones in the end of the workout. Do the long run the day after an intense day. In between of these 2 workouts you could do a progression/lactate threshold/tempo run. Don´t forget to do double days in some days. Just short easy morning runs. You can and preferably should take one day off, especially if not using "down weeks".

After the base work it´s time to include the high lactate aka power workouts.

If done like I suggested you have the basic speed and endurance at good enough level, to build good anaerobic and aerobic power.

Thank you for the reply. This definitely makes sense. That's part of the periodization you are having in a year, correct? I read Coe's book but found his section on periodization a bit confusing to say the least.

Search for "Joe Rubio's middle distance training guide". It has everything you need.

You're not Seb Coe not have his genetic talent. So why copy his training?

I'm not copying his training. I try to read and inform myself of different coaching methods and strategies, and choose a mix that fits my obligations to my school and a balance with academics. I simply found his multi-pace training idea interesting and something that would give me a good idea about what pace I'm trying to run on certain days.

I should´ve guessed you´re looking for shortcuts.

cynical realist wrote:

2000diego wrote:

When training for 800m, how many workouts should I do per week? How do I fit in sprint, 400, 800, 1500, 3k, 5k and 10k pace work? Do long runs and tempos count as workouts? Should my recovery days be run at the same pace as my long run, or way slower to truly be 'recovery' pace? I would like to fit in a day of complete rest but I don't know if that is feasible.

letsrun trolls will tell you 8 hard days per week. I think realistically 2-3 hard days should be plenty of enough, which is what our high school coach made us do, and we ran decent times, although people who are far more knowledgeable and faster than me could chime in.

This is about right.

why not try 10 days instead of a week? Also you don't need to hit on all of those paces. You should do them different times of year. for right now, just hit on all systems per training cycle (10 days or 7 days at a time)

Is a progression of workouts like this one kind of what you were talking about?

800m pace

3x (2x 200) 1' reps, 5' sets

14-18x 100 3.5 min rest

4x (2x 200) 1' reps, 5' sets

3x (3x 200) 1' reps, 5' sets

4-6x 300 3 min rest

3-5x 400 4 min rest

4-6x 300 2.5 min rest

3-5x 400 3.5 min rest

3x 500 7 min rest

3-5x 400 3 min rest

4-6x 300 2 min rest

4x (3x 200) 1' reps, 5' sets

3x 500 6 min rest

2000diego wrote:

800m pace

3x (2x 200) 1' reps, 5' sets

14-18x 100 3.5 min rest

4x (2x 200) 1' reps, 5' sets

3x (3x 200) 1' reps, 5' sets

4-6x 300 3 min rest

3-5x 400 4 min rest

4-6x 300 2.5 min rest

3-5x 400 3.5 min rest

3x 500 7 min rest

3-5x 400 3 min rest

4-6x 300 2 min rest

4x (3x 200) 1' reps, 5' sets

3x 500 6 min rest

Overthinking, impossible workouts (some of those). Sorry, but I feel I have to say it clearly. 4 weeks pre season is plenty of time to get sharp, if there´s the base. And even then one hard 800m pace workout per week is quite demanding. Your plan is very common, like it could be that simple to build the so called race pace speed endurance. That maybe seems nice on paper, but you end up overdoing the race pace work. You will deteriorate both, the anaerobic and aerobic capacity and power. Balance is the key, don´t overrate the race pace work.

Think about it. Would that plan help your speed on 400? Probably not. What about the endurance? No. To run the fast 800 you have to be fast at 400m and have decent endurance to be able to handle the other lap. There´s these pure 400/800m types and then the (400)/800/1500 types, so the training you should do depends. But in the end it´s the capacity, anaerobic and aerobic is what makes the real difference, aka base work, not those practically impossible race pace workouts. Anaerobic power could take only about 3 weeks to create, and then you´re ready to start racing. Good luck.

Which ones are impossible? Is it the distance that makes them impossible, or the rest?

Also, this is obviously not the whole picture. Apart from this, there are tempos, long runs, workouts above and below mile pace and recovery runs. A whole year of periodization wouldn't fit (or be read by anyone) if I put it here, I was just asking about that specific aspect of training.

2000diego wrote:

Which ones are impossible? Is it the distance that makes them impossible, or the rest?

Also, this is obviously not the whole picture. Apart from this, there are tempos, long runs, workouts above and below mile pace and recovery runs. A whole year of periodization wouldn't fit (or be read by anyone) if I put it here, I was just asking about that specific aspect of training.

Well sessions like 3-5x 400 with only 3-4minutes rest (especially if trying 5x400) and the 500´s I believe is too much to tolerate or even impossible to successfully complete, among with the other race pace workouts (and workouts above and below mile pace), for a young guy without years of background of base training. The higher the aerobic and anaerobic capacity is, the higher the amount of race pace / power work can be inside one session and the longer the season with lactic power workouts can be. That plan could be doable for a 800/1500m type runner with high aerobic and anaerobic capacities, but I think that you will overdo the highly lactic race pace work and end up hurting both aerobic and anaerobic systems, which means you "go lactic" at slower paces than before.

Makes sense. Thanks for the advice. So in general is it a bad idea to go past 50% of the distance of the pace you're running at? Eg. More than 400 at 800 pace, 800 at mile pace, 1600 at 2 mile pace, 2.5k at 5k pace? And also, are there any good resources you know for figuring out the proportion of work to rest? From what I understand at 800m pace it's 3.5:1 rest to work ratio, but I don't really know

Many including me have used even 600´s @ 800pace with long recovery (I only did one 600, other repeats was 400 and under. With these longer repeats the rest can be about 4-6 min or even longer, the lactate will can rise up to about 5min or longer AFTER repetition, so I preferred ladders instead on the longer repeats. 200´s @ 800 pace wasn´t that hard to use only 200m jog in 90sec between, did 8-10x200, and these could be done even in the base phase as a 800m spesific VO2max type session, but to really maximize the spesific power in the pre-season the rest has to be very short on these, like 1:1 ratio. On longer repeats the rest should be longer as long that it takes that you can complete the session. Just listen to your body what it needs and don´t hesitate to change / stop the session if starting to tighten up.

I remember training for the 800m doing 600m intervals at 800 goal pace being the best workout for me. I ended up running 2:03 that year and some of my workouts looked like this:

600-1:31 (goal 800 pace)

30-60sec rest

200-:30 (goal 800 pace)

3-5 min rest

600-1:35 (goal 800 pace)

30-60sec rest

200-:30ish (goal 800 pace)

The 600s are killer and I always though if you could hit 600 at your goal pace in a workout then in the race you could hold on to close to that pace for the whole two laps.

Anyways, hope this helps

I'm pretty much hard 7 days a week.

Being the typical poster on here, I have a supermodel wife, drive a fast car and make $250k/year. It's hard to pick which one makes me harder.