EPO doesn't work better than placebo

1000 wrote:

The unethical East German scientists proved what PEDs could do to elite athletes.

What the East Germans proved was that their organized training programs resulted in great performances. The drugs didn't help them in the least. You're confusing your belief in drugs, with improvements being caused by the drugs.

El Wrongo conclusionario wrote:

What the East Germans proved was that their organized training programs resulted in great performances. The drugs didn't help them in the least. You're confusing your belief in drugs, with improvements being caused by the drugs.

You are dangerously dumb, Jon.

1000 wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

Why people are prepared to believe in drug aided performance rather than nature is one of those bizarre things in life. People have strange ideas which they desperately cling to. Belief in so called 'Performance Enhancing Drugs' is a kind of religion. It doesn't matter how illogical the belief, it is just accepted as fact unquestioningly.

You are living in the Stone Age.

You probably think full fat organic milk is more anabolic that Dianabol.

The science of PEDs is still in its infancy, due to the fact it is considered unethical to dope athletes, and there is very little money invested in such research.

The unethical East German scientists proved what PEDs could do to elite athletes.

He's an obvious troll.

Doping obviously works when done properly.

Also, natural EPO levels are generally unresponsive to slow or small changes in erythrocyte count. So a steady loss of RBCs by footstrike hemolysis 2x daily for a year will not result in increased EPO to stimulate replacement. That's why runners experience anemia after increases in training load. Exogenous EPO (doping) will prevent this loss of RBCs.

disgraceful_admin wrote:

1000 wrote:

You are living in the Stone Age.

You probably think full fat organic milk is more anabolic that Dianabol.

The science of PEDs is still in its infancy, due to the fact it is considered unethical to dope athletes, and there is very little money invested in such research.

The unethical East German scientists proved what PEDs could do to elite athletes.

He's an obvious troll.

Doping obviously works when done properly.

Also, natural EPO levels are generally unresponsive to slow or small changes in erythrocyte count. So a steady loss of RBCs by footstrike hemolysis 2x daily for a year will not result in increased EPO to stimulate replacement. That's why runners experience anemia after increases in training load. Exogenous EPO (doping) will prevent this loss of RBCs.

^This fact is well-known and substantiated in the literature, and is a perfect factual counter-example to the "homeostasis" bullsh*t arguent of Jon Orange. Your body allows RBC count to dwindle albeit slowly under heavy training load, and won't even produce more EPO until more than 0.5L have been lost within a brief period of time.

El Wrongo conclusionario wrote:

What the East Germans proved was that their organized training programs resulted in great performances. The drugs didn't help them in the least. You're confusing your belief in drugs, with improvements being caused by the drugs.

1000 wrote:

You are dangerously dumb, Jon.

You're completely wrong on all counts.

But I give you credit for at least being consistent.

disgraceful_admin wrote:

Doping obviously works when done properly.

It obviously worked on you, which is why your brain is confused.

El Wrongo conclusionario wrote:

disgraceful_admin wrote:

Doping obviously works when done properly.

It obviously worked on you, which is why your brain is confused.

So you finally admit drugs do something?

How do PEDs not upset homeostasis then? Surely they must be toxic and upsetting to the system.

disgraceful_admin wrote:

disgraceful_admin wrote:

He's an obvious troll.

Doping obviously works when done properly.

Also, natural EPO levels are generally unresponsive to slow or small changes in erythrocyte count. So a steady loss of RBCs by footstrike hemolysis 2x daily for a year will not result in increased EPO to stimulate replacement. That's why runners experience anemia after increases in training load. Exogenous EPO (doping) will prevent this loss of RBCs.

^This fact is well-known and substantiated in the literature, and is a perfect factual counter-example to the "homeostasis" bullsh*t arguent of Jon Orange. Your body allows RBC count to dwindle albeit slowly under heavy training load, and won't even produce more EPO until more than 0.5L have been lost within a brief period of time.

Stop making stuff up. Hematocrit goes down as you train because your plasma volume increases. Your red blood cell count stays the same. Natural epo and reticulocyte counts (look that one up) stay at the same level unless you either go to altitude or come down from altitude.

Homeostasis is the combination of the body's regulating mechanisms. Again, you need to look that one up.

In short, don't be a brojo, educate yourself.

EPO only works on eltites!

I was born and raised in the eltite faith and I find your comment insulting.

Stop making stuff up. Hematocrit goes down as you train because your plasma volume increases. Your red blood cell count stays the same. Natural epo and reticulocyte counts (look that one up) stay at the same level unless you either go to altitude or come down from altitude.

Homeostasis is the combination of the body's regulating mechanisms. Again, you need to look that one up.

In short, don't be a brojo, educate yourself.[/quote]

Since you're so big on the concept of homeostasis, I'm sure you're aware that intermittent hypoxia, which includes transient bouts of exercise (i.e., "training"), can increase natural circulating EPO, and, eventually, reticulocytes, depending on the duration and intensity of the training (hypoxia). It's not just altitude exposure that induces hypoxia. Training places a huge demand on oxygen use, so the body responds by increasing EPO production to increase RBC production to try to regain homeostasis. Some respond more than others to training in that respect, just like with rhEPO injections.

Look that one up, as you say.

I learned all of that stuff back in the ealy 90s Rod.

Less lecturing and more intelligence if you don't mind?

If you are healthy, your hematocrit is right where it's supposed to be to deliver oxgyen.

And while we are on the subject, elite athletes don't use more oxygen. They are more oxygen/energy efficient.

BASIC PHYSIOLOGY.

LEARN IT.

I'm not asking politely anymore. I insist that exercise physiologists get their shit together and learn some basics about oxygen transport.

wejo and rojo, you too. Get this stuff learned and stop dragging our sport down with your endless pseudoscience. Especially rojo, stop whining on and on about me being a troll and get yer shit together.

Jon Orange wrote:

I'm not asking politely anymore. I insist that exercise physiologists get their shit together and learn some basics about oxygen transport.

wejo and rojo, you too. Get this stuff learned and stop dragging our sport down with your endless pseudoscience. Especially rojo, stop whining on and on about me being a troll and get yer shit together.

Watch out, it's banging it's purse on the table!

disgraceful_admin wrote:

Doping obviously works when done properly.

El Wrongo conclusionario wrote:

It obviously worked on you, which is why your brain is confused.

In Cognito wrote:

So you finally admit drugs do something?

How do PEDs not upset homeostasis then? Surely they must be toxic and upsetting to the system.

Oh yes, I admit the drugs made you stupid, as you still don't understand what they do.

1) drugs can make you stupid;

2) drugs can upset homeostasis;

3) drugs can make you get sick;

4) drugs cannot help you run any faster.

Natural means can help you to run much faster than anything that drugs can do.

Sleep is better at giving you sleep than drugs.

Eating is better at giving you nourishment than drugs.

Water is better for drinking and all the processes of the body than drugs.

Thinking and communicating are better for gaining knowledge than drugs.

Training for running helps you to run better than drugs.

On and on and on and on.

You need to qualify your statement...elite athletes are certainly more efficient, BUT they likely use more oxygen than sub-elites do at near-maximal efforts like in a time trail or hillclimb.

And if you learned that stuff 25 years ago, then why did you make it seem that only altitude would increase circulating EPO? if you want us to get our shit together, get your own shit together first.

If you're gonna argue physiology on this board, you need to make sure your arguments have no holes or broad assumptions. Don't sound like a dick when people don't know basic exercise physiology. Not everyone knows it. Rule 1.

Jon really intends to make his mark on the internet.

With some drugs to help, he may yet do that.

Jon Orange wrote:

And while we are on the subject, elite athletes don't use more oxygen. They are more oxygen/energy efficient.

You're confounding the concepts of capacity and efficiency. That an elite endurance athlete might be unusually efficient does not mean that they can't also have a very high oxygen capacity.

That is, it is advantageous to produce more Watts (to the road) per unit of oxygen. It is also advantageous to be able to process more oxygen. Neither parameter by itself fully defines performance.

Jon Orange wrote:

If you are healthy, your hematocrit is right where it's supposed to be to deliver oxgyen.

This statement reminds me of Pauli's famous remark about "not even wrong."

First, define "healthy."

Then, define "right where it's supposed to be."

Then, during which activity is your hematocrit "delivering" oxygen like it's supposed to? (By the way, your hematocrit isn't "delivering" anything; it's just a measure.)

Citizen Runner wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

And while we are on the subject, elite athletes don't use more oxygen. They are more oxygen/energy efficient.

You're confounding the concepts of capacity and efficiency. That an elite endurance athlete might be unusually efficient does not mean that they can't also have a very high oxygen capacity.

That is, it is advantageous to produce more Watts (to the road) per unit of oxygen. It is also advantageous to be able to process more oxygen. Neither parameter by itself fully defines performance.

A non elite can have a very high aerobic capacity too.