altitude trained runners benefit the most from EPO

Jon Orange said:

"For point 4, the adaptions we seek from training are things such as increased heart stroke volume which comes from increased plasma volume and is easily trainable. It improves endurance and nervous system response to training and racing."

Can you explain in chemical terms how increased heart stroke volume improves the nervous system response.

With a bigger plasma volume, you can do longer workouts because you can sweat more without undue stress. So the adrenaline builds slowly. You can do long runs at a decent pace, or do a better effort in a tempo run. And you can do more effort in a speed endurance session with less stress than if you had a lower plasma volume.

Even in cold weather this is beneficial.

Then, after eating, rehydratiing and resting, you can do it all again, if not the next day then soon afterwards.

I believe in mixing speed and endurance on a regular basis as I hope most knowledgeable runners and coaches do.

I am saying that based on available evidence, absolute VO2 max is not trainable beyond basic health and fitness levels. In other words, your genetics, plus normal basic physical health and fitness that most people get when they do small amount of exercise. Large training volumes don't increase absolute VO2 max.

But yes, beyond body mass and efficiency, the only other variables of consequence are what is going on in your head and how feel physically on the day.

But with regard to the EPO issue, we have been constantly bombarded with this idea that by having more red blood cells, we can carry more oxygen.

I don't believe this. I believe a healthy body produces the right amount of RBCs for maximal and sub maximal oxygen consumption. To put it another way; Lance Armstrong's power outputs were in the normal range for an elite cyclist of his size. Not the 5-15% boost claimed in much of the journalistic fodder. He didn't get powerful from EPO but from low body fat, superb fitness, pace judgement and adrenaline, the only 'PED' that matters.

If you read Tyler Hamilton's book, The Secret Race, and I do reccomend it, you can read between the lines and see just how much psychology plays a part in the doping. How the secret alliance between the doping gurus like Michele Ferrari and the riders would be very appealing to a young, impressionable athlete whose entire life revolved around the sport and was lived in a kind of bubble, where confidantes like Ferrari would have a very strong hold on a cyclists morale and motivation. The secret talks and rituals and interventions would be a very powerful ritual for them psychologically.

If you look at Hamilton's chart of improvement in the Col de la Madone training time trial, you can see that his 10% improvement comes from being a few pounds lighter and trying harder, just as it does for any rider, and Ferrari's claim that this comes from EPO is pure kidology and pseudoscience.

I agree with your statement. Applying this same logic and showing actual test data numbers you can see just how big the difference in efficiency is between fast and slow runners, it is very big. Thus elite runners use a lot less energy to race, not more energy as the EPO dogma insists.

Yes I have cited lots of peer reviewed evidence on other posts. With this subject, we are so bombarded with sensationalistic claims about EPO that very few sports scientists are prepared to challenge the dogma for fear that their reputation will be shot. Plus the fact that funding for research is not going to be provided for that purpose. The authors of the latest research had to fund it themselves:

“This is the first time such detailed research has been done because it is expensive. “We are a foundation and we have financed it ourselves simply because we want to know. It has cost us about €500,000,” says Cohen.”

“Cohen’s group is now analyzing mountains of data on EPO. Among other things, they plan to look at its effects on blood clotting and muscle recovery. They will also send 300 urine samples from both groups to a WADA-accredited doping lab in Belgium to put EPO testing itself to the test. It’s still possible that the EPO group performed better in the lab rides but, for some reason, failed to prevail on the mountain, Heuberger says. But he would not be surprised to find no difference at all.”

Adrenaline binds to alpha and beta adrenergic receptors. How would a "slow"

build, if there was such a thing, effect a response at the motor endplate? Can you describe all the effectors?

More efficient motor unit recruitment, better pace judgement.

The point worthy of debate is that adrenaline builds during a long run or race.

If you have a high plasma volume you can keep going for a long time at a decent pace. With a low plasma volume you can't. It's all part of your conditioning.

Think of the difference between an 800 meter race and a 10k a decent distance runner should be able to run fast over both distances, but they need a very different warm up routine. You need a lot more adrenaline to hold a good pace for just 2 laps.

I ran my 1500 pr and 10k pr less than one week later. To accomplish the I had to do a seeeerious warm up for the 1500.

Jon Orange wrote:

With this subject, we are so bombarded with sensationalistic claims about EPO that very few sports scientists are prepared to challenge the dogma for fear that their reputation will be shot. Plus the fact that funding for research is not going to be provided for that purpose. The authors of the latest research had to fund it themselves.

I must agree with J.O. and many others that the area of r-EPO is simultaneously an area very under- and over-researched. While there are easily at least close to a hundred papers on the substance, there has been very little research on the efficacy of r-EPO during competitions or even conditions even remotely simulating an actual race. After reviewing the possible mechanisms of the substance, famous exercise physiologist Dieter Böning also noted in 2010 that "the placebo effect has to be taken into account" as his team "could find only few true double-blind investigations on ergogenic effects of blood transfusion and Epo".

Böning is actually slightly too skeptical as the claim actually doesn't hold true with old school autotransfusions, as the efficacy of autotransfusions has been tested with the following placebo controlled double-blind procedures that heavily resemble actual race and of which one actually was an actual race (Berglund, 1987):

- Simulated 5-mile treadmill trial (Williams, 1981)

- 10 km track trial (Brien, 1987)

- 15 km cross-country skiing competition (Berglund, 1987)

- 1500m track trial (Brien, 1989)

- 3-mile track trial (Goforth, 1999)

All of these tests measured actual speed and actual times of more or less simulated races from start to finish, ie. not maximal or submaximal times to exhaustion, lactid acid levels nor oxygen uptake peaks. In each of these tests, there was a significant (~2-5 %) improvement in actual speed of the "doped" group after blood reinfusion in relative to the control group.

I am and will remain more on the skeptical side on the efficacy of r-EPO on the performance at the uttermost top, but if we assume that the mechanism is same with r-EPO and autotransfusions (ie. elevated arterial oxygen content), the efficacy of r-EPO with recreational athletes is proven.

I don't believe in autotransfusion either, for the same reasons I give for not beliveing in performance enhancement from r-EPO with regards to extra oxygen delivery.

If you are using more oxygen, than in another test, then the other test was relatively sub maximal. Are the circulating adrenalin levels measured? Environmental conditons affecting heat production? Are there calculations for efficiency? Without such measurements, you don't have a reliable test and any conclusion can't be reliable either.

Exceed normal oxygen uptake in the same conditons would require some of the above. Because we are talking about extra aerobic metabolism which produces extra heat. And efficiency has to be taken into account and measured.

Jon Orange wrote:

I don't believe in autotransfusion either...

Regardless of what your believe system is, the performance of the "blood doped" subjects was enhanced in the aforementioned five experiments and there is no way to circumvent that fact other than to pinpoint some flaws in the procedure or to refer to other studies with different results.

Conclusion I. The positive results of these five experiments occured in spite of any possible transfusion-related factors that could've possibly caused a detrimental effect on performance.

Conclusion II. While theories of "top athletes using less oxygen" and information on "circulating adrenalin", "heat production" and "calculations of efficiency" are interesting, they are only red herring in this context.

I'd just like to see you put it into an equation...

What is the exact mechanism at the molecular level that circulating adrenaline levels play on the motor endplate?

It is not even a red herring, unless either one of you can draw a diagram with detail showing the mechanisms involved.

Details please.

Aragon wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

I don't believe in autotransfusion either...

Regardless of what your believe system is, the performance of the "blood doped" subjects was enhanced in the aforementioned five experiments and there is no way to circumvent that fact other than to pinpoint some flaws in the procedure or to refer to other studies with different results.

Conclusion I. The positive results of these five experiments occured in spite of any possible transfusion-related factors that could've possibly caused a detrimental effect on performance.

Conclusion II. While theories of "top athletes using less oxygen" and information on "circulating adrenalin", "heat production" and "calculations of efficiency" are interesting, they are only red herring in this context.

Do your own tests Aragon. You probably already have and got the same results as me. I have a 2km climb near me with a steady grade, I have gone up that climb in 8 minutes with considerable effort, and later in the same ride gone up the other side and instead of 15 kmh I am going 20 kmh but it doesn't hurt.

I could do 3 VO2 max tests 20 minutes apart and get a better result each time.

These published results are not as conclusive as you believe.

TrackBot! PRs Jon Orange

Mr. Obvious wrote:

TrackBot! PRs Jon Orange

1500 @ 4 at 44 which is pretty good for post 40.

But a 4:18 mile might be his all time fastest, so you can't use that to justify his theory of training or comprehension of physiological parameters.

fred wrote:

What is the exact mechanism at the molecular level that circulating adrenaline levels play on the motor endplate?

It is not even a red herring, unless either one of you can draw a diagram with detail showing the mechanisms involved.

Details please.

Fred!

What are you doing here on this thread?

I thought that we decided that we were not going to participate in the egregious drivel posted by a certain poster here...who shall remain nameless (Shhhh...He is Jon Orange = plasma shift= JR = egregious drivel).

Fred.

Here are some more details for you (that do not involve adrenergic receptor mechanisms):

Fred.

You might remember that I am a non-kenyan doctor/runner living and training hard at 7,000 ft. altitude in Flagstaff, Arizona. I have been a doctor since 1990, and a doctor in Flagstaff since 1992. I have ordered and interpreted thousands of blood tests. Some of those blood tests (and other lab tests) were done on some world-class runners that you may have heard of or seen on TV.

(I have also seen and even talked to many world-class runners who run and train in Flagstaff over the last 24 years…in addition to Bernard Lagat.)

It is just a coincidence.

You have been at 7000 feet for 24 years? Do you ever go to a lower altitude to run? Do you run tests on yourself?

If you have been at altitude for a long time, does your body chemistry shift at a slower rate to several months at sea level?

Thanks rjm.

fred wrote:

You have been at 7000 feet for 24 years? Do you ever go to a lower altitude to run? Do you run tests on yourself?

If you have been at altitude for a long time, does your body chemistry shift at a slower rate to several months at sea level?

Thanks rjm.

(I think J.O. went away. Why does he not stop it? He is just like Tom Hammond of NBC.)

I used to go down to low altitude to race …but I now consider Phoenix as a big pit of burning chaos. I never spend more than a week at low altitude. If I spent a longer period of time…I would die (from a loss of efficiency).

What boring tests do you think I should do fred?

Oh boy.

Did you see the Canadians listed in the boring chart fred?

Did you see that Melissa Bishop is on the Canadian list?

Oh well.

Coolsaet and Gillis, marathoners are not on that diagram, but they are going.

Reid Coolsaet:

"Many people ask me what day I leave for Rio and are surprised to hear I’m not leaving until August 15th. It’s an overnight flight that will put Eric and I in the village on the 16th, five days before our competition. This is good for us as we can do our hard training without the interruption of travel and once we taper take the 10 hour flight. Also, we don’t want to be in the village too long before our race as it’s a little overwhelming being immersed into the village where the Olympics are in your face 24/7. It’s nice to have time away from the big event.

Another question that comes up on Strava when I do a hard session is if that particular run was the last big one. Our biggest session will actually come next week, about 3.5 weeks before the race. It will consist of 80-90 minutes of continuous running close to or at marathon pace. My taper won’t truly begin until the final 10 days. After this week I’ll cut my volume down each week a little but it will still be solid until the last 10 days."

No altitude, blood testing, and its hot and humid.

let me give you a definition of delusional: reading dozens of studies, then suddenly having a Jenny McCarthy moment and saying "I don't believe this (proven science)."dude, I'm gawd almighty and even I want some of what you are smoking.

Jon Orange wrote:

But with regard to the EPO issue, we have been constantly bombarded with this idea that by having more red blood cells, we can carry more oxygen.

I don't believe this.

pseudoscience.