Marathon post mortem

You violated the zephito rule!

Double the distance, add 15 seconds per mile, with an additional 15 seconds for the marathon.

So, you ran 5:40 pace for your Half Marathon. That means you should have planned for 6:10 pace, and that pace only if the weather is good. Instead you went out a lot faster (10 seconds per mile) on a hot day. Don't engage in wishful thinking when it comes to the marathon!

And yes, I know elite athletes can keep it within 15 seconds from half marathon to full marathon (13.1 WR is 4:25 pace, 26.2 WR is 4:41 pace), but most of us have regular jobs and aren't running 120 miles per week.

The heat and the sun were probably the issues. Also aggressive pace early on relative to the conditions. Before really assessing it I would find a cooler marathon for the fall and see how that goes.

I know some people who have run ok in the marathon off the type of training that you did, although yeah the overall mileage and long runs are light. I don't have the speed over the shorter distances that you do but have run 2:41 in a so so race (2nd marathon). but it was cool. Averaged about 80 miles per week. I have not done well in warm conditions and have struggled with cramping in the heat too.

for me goal marathon pace is about :20 per mile slower than half marathon pace. everybody is different with what they prefer/ can handle ~ marathon pace in training. Some folks run 30k at mp in training no problem and then fall apart in the race

First of all, I think you grossly underestimated the effect the heat was going to have. People react differently to heat, I knew a guy once who raced much better in marathons when the temperature was above 75 than when it was nice and cool and he was a real exception. But even in the group of us who are affected badly by heat there are some who are more affected than others.So I think you've addressed things really well with your first two points. Personally, I never had any marathon success when I tried to run a specific pace. I just made a point of staying comfortable in the first ten miles or so and then going harder if it felt OK.

I don't know how to tell you to do that though it seems like you were pretty much doing it anyway. I did nearly all of my runs at about my current marathon pace so for me a marathon was just a longer "normal" run Again, for you I think it was more the heat, coupled with the fact that your mileage is low, that brought on the collapse in the late stages. So your best approach here would be to pick a marathon that happens at a time of year when it's really unlikely to be hot. If you do end up in another hot one, forget about time completely, run much easier than you think you need to for at least 15 miles and then focus on picking off the guys ahead of you who are dying because they too underestimated the heat.

I'd also suggest that because you're doing pretty low mileage for a marathoner that you might not want to rely too much on your performances at shorter distances as indicators of your marathon potential. I know everyone converts half marathon times but I think that underestimates how much farther you still need to run in an actual marathon.

What was really useful in the old days was finding races in the 15-20 mile range and running them all out in part to get a sense of what you could do in the marathon. It's a real loss that such races are pretty much non existent now but maybe you could have a couple all out time trials at 17-20 miles as part of your prep.

.

"Race day comes, and it's HOT" ... pretty much the rest of the info is useless.

The weather you get on marathon day will have a much greater influence on your performance than just about any other distance. Regardless of your level of training, if it's hot, or very very windy on race day your goals are pretty much out the door.

Your choices at that point are to a) not race at all and find another event. b) totally sack your race goals and adjust them way way way back. c) do the race as just another long run, and find another event a couple of weeks away.

Agree. Weather is probably the biggest variable when it comes to running your desired marathon, followed by nutrition/bonking avoidance.

Also, it sounds like you knew the answer before you asked the question - weather and inadequate mileage/unrealistic goal.

While the half time may have indicated that your marathon goal time was reasonable, the conversion assumes you're equally well prepared for each distance. At 55-60 mpw, it is hard to satisfy hat assumption. Folks can run decent matathons on that mileage, but they aren't going to get a performance that is equivalent to their races at lesser distances. Especially folks like you who are at the upper end of the pack.

Jump up to 70 mpw, with no doubles and as many runs of 70 minutes or more per week as possible, get some good weather, work out a good nutrition plan (maybe take in more calories than you described above) and you will be fine.

For the love of god if you care about your performance in a marathon chose one where you have the best chance of performing well.

You blew that when you signed up for a Summer marathon. That's a lot of training, planning, etc only to have a better chance than not of less than optimal weather. And now you aren't just toughing it out through a hot 10k, this is 26.2 freakin miles and over over 2 hrs of heat.

Set yourself up for success by picking a late Fall or early Winter marathon that's run on a honest course, and that has a decent field (for me I don't want a big "mass marathon" but I don't want some dinky 100 person affair either, you want someone to run with if you can.)

Probably the heat was an big thing. Calve cramps has nothing to do with salt i think. I think it's an energything. Either you ran too hard and you burned a lot more carbs or you didnt carb load good enough. For me personally I have run with a hrm and never bonked in marathon. You gotta find out your ideal heartrate to run. Call me crazy but i have never struggled with cramps in a marathon.

I've found marathon race pace to be unrested 1/2 marathon pace +20 seconds.

More mileage or longer (hard) long runs. And definitely don't substitute anything of that low mileage with cross training.

Cramping and carbs may be totally unrelated. I've run two marathons in tough weather conditions. The first was windy and cold and I bonked because I exerted too much energy early on fighting wind and didn't take in enough calories. Second race was warm. Mastered the calorie consumption part, but cramped up at 20 miles and had to stop 5-6 times to stretch calves. Two very different feelings. I too think salt would've helped me that day.

A lot of good answers on this thread! Not much to add. Hanson's plan can work, maybe not the best for a first marathon. 2:33 was never happening, 2:45 for your first, a big __maybe__. So you basically went out way too fast even for perfect weather. All these +0:10 or +0:20 answers are for experienced marathoners.

Can't really count this as a first marathon. You seem very ambitious. I predict for your next effort you still go out way too fast, best case scenario you finish with a huge positive split.

Thanks all for the replies. Helpful stuff.

Question for HRE: How did you "feel" the pace early on? I. THOUGHT I was running by feel early but realize I have always relied on aerobic signals at shorter distances. I thought I was fine since I was keeping up a conversation at mile 10, so clearly there were other signals I was running too fast that I missed.

Also, slightly unrelated, but anyone have good success aqua jogging as cross training? That was logistically a nightmare for me to do but may be easier the next go around.

Bonkerific wrote:

Also, slightly unrelated, but anyone have good success aqua jogging as cross training? That was logistically a nightmare for me to do but may be easier the next go around.

You want to schedule aqua jogging as part of your training!? Are you planning to get injured? Aqua jogging sucks. It triple sucks. Sucks sucks sucks. I can't imagine having that as training unless injured or you despise running long distances.

Running isn't bad for you. It doesn't ruin your knees. It doesn't break you down. The people that ruin their knees, in general, aren't running properly or have terrible form. Or they totally neglect strengthening their quads (hills and/or weights or some cycling).

I used to run 90 mpw. Achilles problems started Sr year of college and have never really gone away fully, although I did get it to a point where it hasn't bugged me post "marathon", thanks mostly to a ton of hip opening and strengthening work.

I was iffy about running >5x a week during this training cycle since the first time I attempted a marathon I got back into it too quickly. Achilles flared up and I didn't even get to the starting line!

To put things in perspective I managed 1:15 in the half on a tough course in the fall running 4x per week(with 1-2 aqua jogs), and ran my 5k pr in college off of only about 60 mpw and a lot of cross training (mostly pool running) so I know it works for me and keeps me healthy.

It's not the most fun thing in the world but I know how to grind it out, and figured even if I top out at 70 next go around it could help me get the same stimulus as running 80. I would love to hear if other folks have done something similar.

Tell us more about your foot.

Ever been to a doc for orthotics?

Stretching? Taping?

You said you had a foot issue right? That's the reason for the low mileage and cross training.

Bonkerific wrote:

Thanks all for the replies. Helpful stuff.

Question for HRE: How did you "feel" the pace early on? I. THOUGHT I was running by feel early but realize I have always relied on aerobic signals at shorter distances. I thought I was fine since I was keeping up a conversation at mile 10, so clearly there were other signals I was running too fast that I missed.

Also, slightly unrelated, but anyone have good success aqua jogging as cross training? That was logistically a nightmare for me to do but may be easier the next go around.

It's hard to describe feeling and again, you probably just really underestimated how much the heat was affecting you which is another way of saying that if the weather had been OK you probably would have fared much better. I would suspect that even though you were running aerobically the stress from the heat was taking its toll on your muscles and other systems. And sometimes there aren't signals. You just die. think of the bug remnants on your car's windshield. No signals for them.

In general, I'd say the more experienced you are with what your best pace for long distances is the more you can feel if you're going too hard or not. For me that wasn't too hard to do because everything I did was around marathon pace or faster and so I pretty much just ran marathons the way I did my weekend long runs. Most people don't do that now so as I said before, I think you should do some really long time trials, upwards of 15 miles, to get a real feel for a pace you can handle, given that you probably can't find races of that length.

If you don't go that route, you probably should just use your first marathon, and I would not count this one as your first, as a "starter" race. Don't have a time goal. Just decide to finish maybe using Tom Osler's suggestion of running the first third much more easily than you know you're capable of doing, the middle third at a still easy but somewhat faster pace and then going as hard as you still can in the final third. You'd want to finish feeling that you did NOT run as fast as you could, not in that race. In your next one you'd have more of a sense of how you should feel.

I know you'd like some sort of specific numbers. All those +10 or +20 per mile slower than your half marathon formulas are attractive and honestly, I think they could have worked for you in better weather. Also, at 50-55 a week you're shaving it awfully fine for a good marathon. Some people can do well on that little. I have a friend who ran 2:17 on 40-50. But on that kind of mileage you probably need to add more seconds per mile to your half marathon pace than higher mileage types need to.

Hey Simple math,

Intriguing formula! How'd you end up coming up with it?

Bonkerific wrote:

1. What signals do you use to determine marathon race pace? I've always run by feel based on aerobic effort and it has served me well at everything half marathon and down, but clearly that wasn't effective for the marathon ( I was keeping up a conversation 10 miles in).

Smack on a HR monitor, warm up and then run 10 miles at MP. If your HR rises substantially more than 5 heart beats, you will not be able to maintain that pace in a marathon. Don't care about the absolute HR, it's the drift that's important. This will tell you the harsh truth if you're too ambitious.

The drift will be much more pronounced in high temperatures, so you cannot extrapolate this directly to a hot weather marathon.

That said, I'm not a proponent of HR monitor for anything else than this. But you will need quite a few runs to get familiar with the HR monitor. Just don't get obsessed by it.

You can of course race the marathon with a HR monitor too. I'm not a big fan of that. But in your hot marathon you would probably have caught the high absolute HR early enough to adjust.