20x400m workout for high schoolers

Another idiot coach? wrote:

Is her coach just an idiot or has anyone heard of something like this for high school training?

This guy heard of it -

Another idiot coach? wrote:

My daughter is a freshman in high school and just showed me her schedule for this week. It calls for 20X400 on Thursday. 5 miles of quality when they haven't done more than 2 at this point.

Her teammates say the coach doesn't tell them how fast to run them. They run it as a 2 person relay so the recovery is standing rest for as long as it takes her partner to finish. Probably 1:30 to 2:00. I told her to run them around 10k pace to try to limit the damage and don't listen if he tells her to run harder. Everyone else will be going all out.

Is her coach just an idiot or has anyone heard of something like this for high school training?

Pretty standard workout. And it isn't even very hard as long as you keep the pace in 3200-5k range.

Including the warmup and cool down, it's a pretty effective way to trick HSers into getting 8-10 miles on the day.

Child's play. Thats only 5 miles.

Ps- Let the coach do the coaching

Kind of surprised people would advocate a 9th grade girl go from 4*800 last week to 20*400m the next. At mile to 2 mile pace. I've run my whole life, never did anything like that, and never would do that in my training as a grown man.

I did those about 3 times a week one summer, ran a marathon in September, and had a good cross country season in the fall.

The reps are fine.

The jump up seems like quite a bit, but it's only 5 miles

As you say, easing into them over a few weeks is a good idea to get used to them.

smile wrote:

Another idiot coach? wrote:

Is her coach just an idiot or has anyone heard of something like this for high school training?

This guy heard of it -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA

Just because Jim Ryun apparently did this workout, does not mean it is OK for the OPs daughter to do it right now. This is the worst type of coaching ever, finding out what elites have done and just copying it.

They have only done 2 miles of quality work on the track so far, jumping to 5 is silly, where is the progression? Coaching is about working with your athlete and helping them develop at the right rate, especially at high school age. Anyone can prescribe workouts, that isn't coaching.

Another idiot coach? wrote:

Kind of surprised people would advocate a 9th grade girl go from 4*800 last week to 20*400m the next. At mile to 2 mile pace. I've run my whole life, never did anything like that, and never would do that in my training as a grown man.

You were being trolled

Another idiot coach? wrote:

My daughter is a freshman in high school and just showed me her schedule for this week. It calls for 20X400 on Thursday. 5 miles of quality when they haven't done more than 2 at this point.

Her teammates say the coach doesn't tell them how fast to run them. They run it as a 2 person relay so the recovery is standing rest for as long as it takes her partner to finish. Probably 1:30 to 2:00. I told her to run them around 10k pace to try to limit the damage and don't listen if he tells her to run harder. Everyone else will be going all out.

Is her coach just an idiot or has anyone heard of something like this for high school training?

20x400 in teams of 2. So each girl runs 10x400.

4x800 last week= 3200, 10x400=4000. Seems like a logical progression.

Make you better wrote:

Another idiot coach? wrote:

My daughter is a freshman in high school and just showed me her schedule for this week. It calls for 20X400 on Thursday. 5 miles of quality when they haven't done more than 2 at this point.

Her teammates say the coach doesn't tell them how fast to run them. They run it as a 2 person relay so the recovery is standing rest for as long as it takes her partner to finish. Probably 1:30 to 2:00. I told her to run them around 10k pace to try to limit the damage and don't listen if he tells her to run harder. Everyone else will be going all out.

Is her coach just an idiot or has anyone heard of something like this for high school training?

20x400 in teams of 2. So each girl runs 10x400.

4x800 last week= 3200, 10x400=4000. Seems like a logical progression.

The post was a little unclear whether each kid was doing 20x400 (and they were simply taking recovery when the other kid was running) or two kids were splitting it into two legs of 10x400--it could easily be read either way.

First off, you mention that the coach has had these kids running no more than 2 miles a day prior to this workout. I don't think any coach can justify having distance kids run only two miles in a practice (except possibly pre-invite days)--that's under 20 minutes of running for even somewhat out of shape kids, and on recovery days I would recommend having the new kids do around 30 - 45 minutes, even if it's a mix of running/walking. Even if you're working in tons of accessory work, two miles a day is just not sufficient for distance kids to get in the shape they need to train properly.

That being said, the jump from ~2 miles (you mention they ran it as a 4x800 workout? Do these kids not have warmups and cooldowns? Do they not count them in their mileage?) to a hard effort 20x400 is extreme.

I'm generally a fan of low volume high quality work for distance runners. I've known several sub-5 minute / sub 10:30 female milers / 2-milers and very few of them put in much more than 30 - 35 MPW. With the exception of tempo work during cross, none of them ever did workouts as high-volume as 20x400. In general, I would not consider 20x400 an appropriate workout for most high school runners.

Obviously this approach comes from anecdotal experience and all runners/coaching philosophies are different--there are definitely some high school athletes who can benefit from 20x400, but only if done properly. It does not sound like your daughter's coach has been approaching this workout with the necessary care; all segments of this workout should be timed--including the recovery--in order to make sure athletes aren't falling off pace / stalling on rest. If they are, it's often in their best interest to stop the workout or change the pace targets.

I'd also say that freshmen girls, even those coming from soccer/basketball/swimming backgrounds, should probably steer away from this workout. 20x400 is the kind of thing that makes kids break/hate track, and the benefits of 5 miles of quality work that early in high schoolers' track careers is not worth the risks. Many freshmen do not have the basic fitness levels needed for a workout like that one, and would be better off developing that fitness before attempting super high volume workouts (rather than using high volume workouts to develop the raw fitness).

Err, but everything else aside, I'd say that generally one should let the coach do their job and not try and second guess everything they do. If this coach has a proven record of making things work, I'd say let them coach (provided the coach isn't known for having kids break in their program--I know plenty of coaches who pretty much weed out the athletes that struggle/get injured, and many of these coaches end up with their top runners hating the sport come senior year).

Yes, I would say that most freshmen girls should not be running 20x400. I'd also say, however, that there might be more to this story, and if you really are concerned, check in with the coach before anything else.

Good luck to your daughter in her high school running career!

You're too quick to armchair general your kids team.

For all you know, this is an attempt to ease them into running 5 or 6 miles continuously. In fact, if they weren't told times, I can guarantee you most of them will probably be going barely faster than their easy run pace.

If her coach was having them do this exact workout on the roads, you would be complaining that her coach has them out gallowalking, and that it is way too easy, and that you are a runner, so you know that continuous running is the only way to do things and that in 20 years you've never needed to gallowalk.

Until you have more information, leave well enough alone. And if you are still concerned in a month from now when you've seen a more complete picture of their training, it is best to assume you're getting distorted information, since that is how teenagers brains work, they distort reality.

At the high school I coach at, we have a policy that no parent ever talks directly to a coach about workouts, play time, etc. They can only ask about logistics, scheduling, volunteering to help, etc. Any discussion of training strategies or who is in which meets has to be done with a vice principal and the athletic director present. It's great, keeps everybody happy.

I do let parents come talk to me to get clarification even though I'm not supposed to, but don't entertain any discussion beyond that. No parent has ever then felt the need to have a conference with me and the administrators.

We also have excellent numbers of volunteer parents for our fundraiser and to help run meets, despite being in a mixed income neighborhood.

I'd suggest you suggest these changes to your daughters school before you do any damage.

We did this... but as a broken tempo run out in lane 4 (they walked the stager for recovery) and half way we turned around.

It also was not with freshman girls (they did 8-12) and we built up to it over 4-6 weeks progressively.

sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf wrote:

You're too quick to armchair general your kids team.

For all you know, this is an attempt to ease them into running 5 or 6 miles continuously. In fact, if they weren't told times, I can guarantee you most of them will probably be going barely faster than their easy run pace.

.

The workout sounds like fun to me. Sounds like a smart coach keeping his kids enthused about running.

Metric Miler wrote:

Just because Jim Ryun apparently did this workout, does not mean it is OK for the OPs daughter to do it right now.

Jim Ryun did a harder version of this workout - 40 x 400.

In fact, he did 50 x 400 at least once in high school.

Metric Miler wrote:

This is the worst type of coaching ever, finding out what elites have done and just copying it.

I never suggested that his daughter do that. I merely answered his question.

I don't see a problem with doing this workout though. The coach didn't tell them how fast to run it plus they are getting lengthy rests.

Make you better wrote:

Another idiot coach? wrote:

My daughter is a freshman in high school and just showed me her schedule for this week. It calls for 20X400 on Thursday. 5 miles of quality when they haven't done more than 2 at this point.

Her teammates say the coach doesn't tell them how fast to run them. They run it as a 2 person relay so the recovery is standing rest for as long as it takes her partner to finish. Probably 1:30 to 2:00. I told her to run them around 10k pace to try to limit the damage and don't listen if he tells her to run harder. Everyone else will be going all out.

Is her coach just an idiot or has anyone heard of something like this for high school training?

20x400 in teams of 2. So each girl runs 10x400.

4x800 last week= 3200, 10x400=4000. Seems like a logical progression.

Mentions 5 miles of quality

If so the session is a crock for HS

It's totally nuts for 9th grade girls. Or almost any HS athlete.

malmo wrote:

The workout sounds like fun to me. Sounds like a smart coach keeping his kids enthused about running.

Maybe fun for you, but I can't imagine some young boy or girl out for outdoor track the first time being told to do 20 x 400 and not thinking, OMG. You surely must consider the psychological aspects of doing so many repeats. Age is definitely a factor here, as is experience.

Just suppose someone comes out from basketball and this is one of the first workouts.....for me it would have been, see you later.

californiacarlson wrote:

malmo wrote:

The workout sounds like fun to me. Sounds like a smart coach keeping his kids enthused about running.

Maybe fun for you, but I can't imagine some young boy or girl out for outdoor track the first time being told to do 20 x 400 and not thinking, OMG. You surely must consider the psychological aspects of doing so many repeats. Age is definitely a factor here, as is experience.

Just suppose someone comes out from basketball and this is one of the first workouts.....for me it would have been, see you later.

Do you think the coach is having them run them at 60 each or something?