Advice for HS Runner Doubling Mile/2 MIle

OP, is your handle a reference to Full House?

No, Seinfeld!

Yes, every athlete and coach who were active in the '60s, '70s and '80s. We all doubled all the time. It was not traumatic and stop making it so for your athlete.

Have her warm up as usual for the mile and then have her jog/walk a half-mile after her first race. Then rest/stretch for the next hour. About 15 min before the 2mile have her warm up an easy half-mile again and do some strides as usual. She won't need to do as much warmup or as many strides because those muscles and lungs, heart and enzymes will already be warm and flowing from her previous warmup and 1 mile race.

Foam rolling is for muscle recovery not warmups or warm down. Leave food at home.

Light 400 jog after the mile. Sit down flat (not sitting in the stands) but on the ground so the legs are flat. Slow 800 jog 45 minutes before the 2 mile. Then a short warmup and strides 15 minutes before the last race, That is all.

I always tell my kids who are doubling for the first time they've run enough and are prepared for it. If they weren't I wouldn't have entered them in it.

Also I let them know that the two mile doesn't feel that different than running it fresh other than you feel as tired at about 800 in as you would 1200 to 1400 into a fresh one. That being said if they are properly conditioned and have the strength their pace shouldn't be effected that much, just a conscious decision of focusing on racing rather than self pity.

@TryYourHardest, I foam roll before every workout and race, as do the majority of my athletes. Check this article for why:

http://www.outsideonline.com/1784261/should-i-foam-roll-or-after-workout

I don't think I was making it "traumatic" just asking for other's input on how to best approach what should be a tough double. Congratulations on your toughness though!

Try your hardest ... wrote:

Yes, every athlete and coach who were active in the '60s, '70s and '80s. We all doubled all the time. It was not traumatic and stop making it so for your athlete.

Have her warm up as usual for the mile and then have her jog/walk a half-mile after her first race. Then rest/stretch for the next hour. About 15 min before the 2mile have her warm up an easy half-mile again and do some strides as usual. She won't need to do as much warmup or as many strides because those muscles and lungs, heart and enzymes will already be warm and flowing from her previous warmup and 1 mile race.

Foam rolling is for muscle recovery not warmups or warm down. Leave food at home.

This. Lots of us tripled too.

OP, if you try a protein shake, try to find one that matches the color of the track.

There's a tenuous connection at best between some presumably adult male tripling in the 1970's and a 15 year old girl doubling for the first time today. Thanks though.

SlipperyPete13 wrote:

There's a tenuous connection at best between some presumably adult male tripling in the 1970's and a 15 year old girl doubling for the first time today. Thanks though.

Why is it any different for a girl? What physiological reason would there be a difference? and what is different about the 1M / 2M double in 2016 from the same in 1976?

And you are making it sound like it is some kind of traumatic event. This attitude is why athletes find it to be a big deal instead of just slightly more challenging than a single race at a track meet.

You don't think there's a difference between someone with many years of training under their belt vs. someone in the beginning stages of their running career? And you also don't think there's a difference between a fully developed male and a still developing female, a group that is much more prone to stress fractures? I'm not being facetious; I'm genuinely curious as to whether you don't think that a person's gender and age factor into the type of work they can handle.

SlipperyPete13 wrote:

There's a tenuous connection at best between some presumably adult male tripling in the 1970's and a 15 year old girl doubling for the first time today. Thanks though.

I was 16 then. Although I was nothing special, at least I have the experience from having doubled and tripled (and quadrupled once or twice) a lot. Apparently you do not.

Since you're looking for the details -- jog for a few minutes post-race until some her legs feel like running. At that point, the warm-down is done. Have her get some more clothes on.

Next is hydration. This is especially easy to overlook indoors. She wants to get some water in her now so that it has time to settle in before next race and warmup.

Before the next race, do an abbreviated version of her usual warmup, and off she goes.

SlipperyPete13 wrote:

You don't think there's a difference between someone with many years of training under their belt vs. someone in the beginning stages of their running career?...

You are completely missing the point.

Set some concrete goals that are realistic about the events and let her do it. The young athlete is not a fragile flower.

How am I missing the point? I started a thread asking for advice about doubling in the mile/2 Mile. Another poster responded with some gibberish about how he used to run 6 races a day in the 70's. I asked him how this related to the situation I described, and then you chimed in by saying "let her do it." I wouldn't consider this athlete a "fragile flower" but when you are coaching young people, you want to put them in the best position to succeed, no?

SlipperyPete13 wrote:

You don't think there's a difference between someone with many years of training under their belt vs. someone in the beginning stages of their running career? And you also don't think there's a difference between a fully developed male and a still developing female, a group that is much more prone to stress fractures? I'm not being facetious; I'm genuinely curious as to whether you don't think that a person's gender and age factor into the type of work they can handle.

I am not being facetious either and I will try to answer in a sincere way.

Q1: You said she is a sophomore, so I assumed she had run since Fall of '14. This seems like enough foundation to run 1600/3200 in a meet to me.

Similarly, why do you assume that I had many yrs of training when I did my first doubles? I was not trying to compare her to me, because I don't know her. But all of us did doubles when I was a freshman. If you ran the 800m, you usually would triple. I was lucky that we had a freshman-only team, and so I was running against others my age, but I was running 4:50/10:20 as a freshy so that was comparable to the times run in varsity. We ran 14 outdoor meets that Spring and I think I doubled in 5 of them. I was training really consistently, so I would not compare myself to someone I don't know.

But the answer is FOR ME, I don't think there is a difference in how you warmup or stretch or rest for the second race for different runners. If they are ready to double, they can just tackle the double just like I did. If they are not ready, they should not do it and no amount of food or foam rollers will fix that.

Q2: This was not a question of comparing a male and a female at any stage of development. You asked, I answered. She is a sophomore, I told you what I did as a freshman (and this was normal practice), and as a sophomore we ran 17 outdoor meets and I doubled at 8 or so, 3200m run at all of them. I certainly was not fully developed by 9th or 10th grade. In 9th grade I was 5'7" and 112lbs.

HS girls seem to be more prone to stress fractures than males whatever their age and training volume/history. I don't think that running the 1600/3200 will be what pushes them over the edge to a stress fracture compared to just the 1600 or 3200.

But what our coach did with the girls in XC (because they nearly all got injured once per XC season and the boys nearly NEVER did) was to have them all race in road racing flats and not spikes. The boys on the other hand, carried their spikes to the race course or the park or the hill-repeat hill, and switched into them for miles, 880s, quarters, 1000s and hill repeats.

So, yes, I think you should be more careful with shin stress fractures with all girls. And maybe during all mile and 2mile races have them race in road-racing flats.

Q3: I don't think a person's gender matters when it comes to a double. If you have 2 runners who are male and female and both are very well-conditioned, there should be no difference in their approach to the 1600/3200 double or other doubles or triples.

Age matters, but at 6th and 7th and 8th grade track meets I doubled at 800/1600. So I think that HSers in general can double. I think that as you get older it is easier to handle a double, it is also easier to handle any track meets.

I know for myself, we did not have 90min rest between, so my approach was either to take the 1600 easy (5-8 sec slower than best) and hammer the 3200. Or, I would hammer the 1600 and accept that the 3200 was just 20-30 min later and I would have to be about 6-12 sec slower than ideal.

So those are my sincere feelings and I was not being mean, I just don't see a need for foam rolling between races (and I DO USE a foam roller now for recovery from rowing and cycling) and I don't think you need more than water (and maybe a gel?) between races.

Is a gel going to help in something like a 1600, 800, and 4x400 triple at a short indoor meet? I have one coming up and have a spare gel I haven't used in forever.

The single best thing I ever did was elevating my legs up against a wall for about 20 min after my cool down of my first race. This helps with momentary recovery. It works wonders

Caffeine gum. I recently started using it haven't tried it on a double yet, but I can definitely see it working. If your athlete is feeling really fatigued after the mile, maybe it would help to have a half gram of caffeine in her system.

genuinely curious wrote:

Is a gel going to help in something like a 1600, 800, and 4x400 triple at a short indoor meet? I have one coming up and have a spare gel I haven't used in forever.

A gel has 100 Kcal usually and sometimes has some caffeine in it. I ran yrs ago when we didn't use these things (we didn't have them - we did have Quench gum!!) but I don't see it as helping. Usually you have eaten 4-5 hours before the race and for a double I would err on the side of 5 hours. Because you are adding one shorter warmup and one race.

AS long as you eat normally the day before I don't think some small amount of Carbs will help you in a 1600/3200 meet.

If you think it will, give it a try. Otherwise as was instructed, drink some water, not a lot, between the first and second race.

SlipperyPete13 wrote:

How am I missing the point? I started a thread asking for advice about doubling in the mile/2 Mile. Another poster responded with some gibberish about how he used to run 6 races a day in the 70's.

You missed the part where you were worried about stress fractures, presumably from running two events, 90 minutes apart.

90 minutes between events, if the kid is hungry, a gel is the way to go. Don't give the kid stimulants. It's just not necessary.

Again, be clear about what is possible/likely in the second event and set reasonable expectations.