How often should a middle distance runner do this speed workout

Idk man. That's a good question though. If only someone with a good amount of knowledge on this subject would answer you.

If you're going to do it, do it right. You can only maintain your max velocity to train it for 2 seconds or so. 50-60m flys are not speed, but speed endurance, often used for come home finishing speed for 100-400 sprinters. And full recovery of CPK takes 7-10 minutes in people who are not high level sprinters, and up to 20 minutes in people who are high level sprinters.

The way to do it is 3-4 30 meter flys with a 30 meter acceleration leadin and 10 minute recovery (and that is rest, not jogging). If done at top speed, this is a very hard workout for your CNS and requires substantial recovery: Certainly not more than once a week and it will probably only give gains for 3-4 times: Once your nervous system has gotten used to producing max velocity, it doesn't work any more.

Sounds good thanks

30 meters is better but 3 minutes of rest replenishes nearly all creatine phosphate. 5 minutes is sufficient for a flying 30. I'd do it 2x a month and short hills 2x a month also. That's enough pure speed and power from running you'll need.

Hey I head that 50s and 60s are good for the precompetion phase if you do them twice a month. And I heard also heard that they don't have to be flying ones but just all out sprinting

[quote]coach wrote:

3 minutes of rest replenishes nearly all creatine phosphate. 5 minutes is sufficient for a flying 30.

Wrong, and that's a reason why many distance runners are slow. You need a lot more recovery from speed sessions than many distance runners believe. 3 minutes is partial recovery of CPK, not full recovery for a max effort, even for slow-twitch people:

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2010/905612.fig.006.jpg

There's also something else that doesn't get discussed by distance runners. In order to train max velocity, you need to be able to produce ATP at a fast enough rate from start through the end of the fly portion so you can reach and train max velocity. You cannot train your nerves to fire faster if you cannot produce energy fast enough. That means some of what sprinters call speed endurance, which is 95-97% effort for 8-15 seconds with 10-20 minute rest. For distance runners, that probably means distances of 60-110 meters, essentially all-out, from a standing start, and you might only need 2 of these to have an effect. The two different workout types are complementary, so you might alternate them.

So let's say I do 60s at 100% with a standing start with a 6 minute recovery (since it seems like 1 minute recovery per 10m is best) how many of those would be good for a work out?

Also considering I have done any speed in a looong time so I've lost a lot of speed so I need to do a lot of pure speed type of work

coach wrote:

30 meters is better but 3 minutes of rest replenishes nearly all creatine phosphate. 5 minutes is sufficient for a flying 30. I'd do it 2x a month and short hills 2x a month also. That's enough pure speed and power from running you'll need.

Would it be too much to include a jumps workout (say 15 - 20 minutes) consisting of ballistic and plyometric single and double leg efforts with these sprints? These jumps would consist of rope skipping, box jumps, depth jumps, and similar drills.

Enquiring Mind wrote:

coach wrote:

30 meters is better but 3 minutes of rest replenishes nearly all creatine phosphate. 5 minutes is sufficient for a flying 30. I'd do it 2x a month and short hills 2x a month also. That's enough pure speed and power from running you'll need.

Would it be too much to include a jumps workout (say 15 - 20 minutes) consisting of ballistic and plyometric single and double leg efforts with these sprints? These jumps would consist of rope skipping, box jumps, depth jumps, and similar drills.

Oh, I add that I would probably do only 4 sprints. So would it be too much to include a jumps workout (say 15 - 20 minutes) consisting of ballistic and plyometric single and double leg efforts with these sprints? These jumps would consist of rope skipping, box jumps, depth jumps, and similar drills.

coach wrote:

30 meters is better but 3 minutes of rest replenishes nearly all creatine phosphate. 5 minutes is sufficient for a flying 30. I'd do it 2x a month and short hills 2x a month also. That's enough pure speed and power from running you'll need.

Please tell us the details regarding the short hills (e.g., duration or distance, steepness, rest interval, etc). Thanks.

Matimba wrote:

6-10 x flying 50s with full recovery (apparently 5 minutes)

Once a week? Once every other week?

Overkill. Maybe 3 tops. Even then you'll never hit that speed at any point in an 800/1500.

If you run 27s each 200 that's 1:48.

WR mile pace is 28 per 200. Don't need blazing speed for that. Most middle distance runners leave their best stuff in practice because they're doing too much speed.

Don't believe me, ask Drew Hunter and Tinman.

Expert Training Theorist wrote:

Matimba wrote:

6-10 x flying 50s with full recovery (apparently 5 minutes)

Once a week? Once every other week?

Overkill. Maybe 3 tops. Even then you'll never hit that speed at any point in an 800/1500.

If you run 27s each 200 that's 1:48.

WR mile pace is 28 per 200. Don't need blazing speed for that. Most middle distance runners leave their best stuff in practice because they're doing too much speed.

Don't believe me, ask Drew Hunter and Tinman.

Expert,

What about reports, if my memory serves correctly, of Coe, Aouita, and perhaps Ovett covering some 100m stretch faster than 12 seconds?

Questionerer wrote:

Expert Training Theorist wrote:

Overkill. Maybe 3 tops. Even then you'll never hit that speed at any point in an 800/1500.

If you run 27s each 200 that's 1:48.

WR mile pace is 28 per 200. Don't need blazing speed for that. Most middle distance runners leave their best stuff in practice because they're doing too much speed.

Don't believe me, ask Drew Hunter and Tinman.

Expert,

What about reports, if my memory serves correctly, of Coe, Aouita, and perhaps Ovett covering some 100m stretch faster than 12 seconds?

Completely irrelevant, since Hunter is so much better than those runners.

coach d wrote:

If you're going to do it, do it right. You can only maintain your max velocity to train it for 2 seconds or so. 50-60m flys are not speed, but speed endurance, often used for come home finishing speed for 100-400 sprinters. And full recovery of CPK takes 7-10 minutes in people who are not high level sprinters, and up to 20 minutes in people who are high level sprinters.

The way to do it is 3-4 30 meter flys with a 30 meter acceleration leadin and 10 minute recovery (and that is rest, not jogging). If done at top speed, this is a very hard workout for your CNS and requires substantial recovery: Certainly not more than once a week and it will probably only give gains for 3-4 times: Once your nervous system has gotten used to producing max velocity, it doesn't work any more.

Coach D, read the thread title, it's says middle distance runners not sprinters.

Everything in your post is wrong advice and wrong physiology for a middle distance runner. CPK is not even the main fuel in at max velocity.

Matimba wrote:

6-10 x flying 50s with full recovery (apparently 5 minutes)

Once a week? Once every other week?

It depends on your other training, so a definitive figure is impossible to give. One thing is for certain and that is that you need a very good warm up before you do such a session, this will not only help you run faster, but help you recover better and avoid injury. If any muscle tightens up it is best to stop the workout and not try to be a hero and push through it.

Matimba wrote:

So let's say I do 60s at 100% with a standing start with a 6 minute recovery (since it seems like 1 minute recovery per 10m is best) how many of those would be good for a work out?

Lets say you either follow coach d advice or do whatever you want

What kind of advice is that? Coach D is always trying to pretend that he knows more than middle and long distance coaches about their training? Do you think that is true?

I'll just pipe in here to say that in my experience, most distance runners don't actually know how to sprint and don't respect the idea of 'full recovery', so these 'max' speed workouts end up becoming something else.

When true sprinters do this workout, they freakin milk the recovery, but actually do sprint for 50m. It might take them close to an hour to do that workout.

I would suggest asking yourself what you are actually trying to accomplish. If it's being able to 'kick' at the end of the race, then I would read about muscle fiber recruitment. It's one lens to view the ability to kick - what muscles do you have available to you as the main ones involved in distance running fail due to fatigue? Some approaches to improve muscle fiber recruitment are heavy lifts (squats, deadlifts) and hill sprints. I like the suggestion to include a jumps circuit. All of these things combined as part of your whole training approach would contribute to you improving your ability to kick, but it's not like you are going to pile them into a couple weeks, they need to be part of your overall training approach. Less is usually more with this stuff too.

On the other hand, if you are worried that your 'goal pace' feels too fast, so you need to improve your 'speed' by doing sprint workouts, then you need to review your current fitness level, not your speed.