Remember when "atheist" had a negative connotation?

Well said. wrote:

Snooze Alarm wrote:

I believe in prayer, but I don't pray for my self. I will on occasion pray for others or their families, but I try not wasting Gods time listening my prayers hoping I win the powerball jackpot or some other self-centered desire.

Prayer can work if you believe in prayer. But you can't expect your prayers to be answered every time you're having a picnic and are hoping for good weather. Prayer doesn't work that way.

Amen!!![/quote]

You guys are kidding, right?

Or do you actually think that an all-knowing God is in need of your prayers to point out a need somewhere?

Or perhaps you think that an all-wise, all-loving God is in need of your prayers to change His/Her mind about the best course of action (or inaction) for Him/Her to take.

Like I said, you guys are kidding, right?

This ^ is well said. Murder is a badge of honor in some societies as long as you are murdering the right sort of folk. Same with theft and rape.

And lying? Lying isn't even generically wrong to any rational minded person.

0 for 4 for thejeff

Joe or Something Else wrote:

Well said. wrote:

Amen!!!

You guys are kidding, right?

Or do you actually think that an all-knowing God is in need of your prayers to point out a need somewhere?

Or perhaps you think that an all-wise, all-loving God is in need of your prayers to change His/Her mind about the best course of action (or inaction) for Him/Her to take.

Like I said, you guys are kidding, right?[/quote]

No, I'm not kidding. Over the years I've tried to explain from the depth of my soul to non-believers/fence sitters how/why I believe in what I believe. But usually it turns into either an argument about my believing in something unprovable, being brain washed from childbirth or flat out being insulted on my lack of mental capacity and not believing the science that says there is no God only an expanding universe.

That's ok. I've got thick skin. Hit me with your sticks. Throw your stones at me. Slap me on one cheek and I'll turn the other. You'll not diminish me by doing so, but rather your own self.

Some people are born with the calling to be a minister, missionary or a proselytizer. I'm neither of them. I'm just a Believer who isn't afraid to engage non-believers in a civil discussion about matters regarding Faith.

For people that share my Faith, that's great. For those that don't, that's your choice. I'll neither try to convert you or judge you. If you don't believe, that's your choice. I'm not here to judge. Please try giving me and like minded folks that share my/our convictions the same consideration.

Thank You! :-)

P.S.

As I said in an earlier post, we'll all find out who is right/wrong on the day each of us takes our last breath. Until then live long and prosper. I hope everyone taking part in this thread has a great life and never has to suffer.

Thank You! :-)

Well said. wrote:

Joe or Something Else wrote:

Amen!!!

You guys are kidding, right?

Or do you actually think that an all-knowing God is in need of your prayers to point out a need somewhere?

Or perhaps you think that an all-wise, all-loving God is in need of your prayers to change His/Her mind about the best course of action (or inaction) for Him/Her to take.

Like I said, you guys are kidding, right?

No, I'm not kidding. Over the years I've tried to explain from the depth of my soul to non-believers/fence sitters how/why I believe in what I believe. But usually it turns into either an argument about my believing in something unprovable, being brain washed from childbirth or flat out being insulted on my lack of mental capacity and not believing the science that says there is no God only an expanding universe.

That's ok. I've got thick skin. Hit me with your sticks. Throw your stones at me. Slap me on one cheek and I'll turn the other. You'll not diminish me by doing so, but rather your own self.

Some people are born with the calling to be a minister, missionary or a proselytizer. I'm neither of them. I'm just a Believer who isn't afraid to engage non-believers in a civil discussion about matters regarding Faith.

For people that share my Faith, that's great. For those that don't, that's your choice. I'll neither try to convert you or judge you. If you don't believe, that's your choice. I'm not here to judge. Please try giving me and like minded folks that share my/our convictions the same consideration.

Thank You! :-)

P.S.

As I said in an earlier post, we'll all find out who is right/wrong on the day each of us takes our last breath. Until then live long and prosper. I hope everyone taking part in this thread has a great life and never has to suffer.

Thank You! :-)[/quote]

The people who don't believe won't find out. They'll just be dead. You don't find stuff out when you are dead.

Well said. wrote:

Joe or Something Else wrote:

Amen!!!

You guys are kidding, right?

Or do you actually think that an all-knowing God is in need of your prayers to point out a need somewhere?

Or perhaps you think that an all-wise, all-loving God is in need of your prayers to change His/Her mind about the best course of action (or inaction) for Him/Her to take.

Like I said, you guys are kidding, right?

No, I'm not kidding. Over the years I've tried to explain from the depth of my soul to non-believers/fence sitters how/why I believe in what I believe. But usually it turns into either an argument about my believing in something unprovable, being brain washed from childbirth or flat out being insulted on my lack of mental capacity and not believing the science that says there is no God only an expanding universe.

That's ok. I've got thick skin. Hit me with your sticks. Throw your stones at me. Slap me on one cheek and I'll turn the other. You'll not diminish me by doing so, but rather your own self.

Some people are born with the calling to be a minister, missionary or a proselytizer. I'm neither of them. I'm just a Believer who isn't afraid to engage non-believers in a civil discussion about matters regarding Faith.

For people that share my Faith, that's great. For those that don't, that's your choice. I'll neither try to convert you or judge you. If you don't believe, that's your choice. I'm not here to judge. Please try giving me and like minded folks that share my/our convictions the same consideration.

Thank You! :-)

P.S.

As I said in an earlier post, we'll all find out who is right/wrong on the day each of us takes our last breath. Until then live long and prosper. I hope everyone taking part in this thread has a great life and never has to suffer.

Thank You! :-)[/quote]

I noticed that you did not even attempt to address the questions asked.

Here, I'll give you a second chance:

"Do you actually think that an all-knowing God is in need of your prayers to point out a need somewhere?

Or perhaps you think that an all-wise, all-loving God is in need of your prayers to change His/Her mind about the best course of action (or inaction) for Him/Her to take?"

I'll be anxiously awaiting an answer that makes any sense even with the assumption that there is a God.

I apologize for not answering your original question. I'm not a theologian by anyones stretch of their imagination. But to try to answer your question I give you,

Matthew 6:5-8

“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

I'm getting ready to retire for the evening, but I'll gladly reply to yours, if you have one, tomorrow. Peace!

yoyoyoy wrote:

To Coach wrote:

Many people have death bed epiphanies, so, perhaps.

Eating bacon? Sure why not. Catholics have no rules regarding the consumption of swine.

The bible does say shell fish are a no-no. But most Christians like shell fish so they skip over that part and focus on the gay marriage section.

You are confusing Ritual Law, which Jesus fulfilled (thus we are no longer bound by it...shellfish and Under Armour are ok! Thanks Jesus!) with Moral Law (which we are still bound by... murder and theft still bad! Thanks Jesus!)

aquafina wrote:

Religion is a farce. Ever wonder why it just so happens that the religion that you were brought up in tends to THE one and only correct choice? Man, how lucky YOU were to be born in the family and area of the world that just so happens to worship the one true god!

lol idiots.

If this were true, then why are there converts?

Yeahway wrote:

coach wrote:

Can I get into heaven if I don't believe in Jesus then? Can I get into heaven if I eat bacon?

Heaven was around before Jesus, no?

Bacon is fine as long as you repent or some such bs.

Jesus is eternal. So, no, heaven was not around before Jesus. (Note the first person plural of Genesis 1)

:-)

Mohammed was in a real bind. Here, he had Jesus speaking truth. However, he felt that Meccans had strayed too far into polytheism, so that the concept of the Trinity was confusing to them. What to do? He changed how Jesus represented himself. Since Mohammed portrayed Jesus as a regular man (and not the Son of God), Muslims have no problem honoring him as such.

The "Trinity thing came about" at the exact same time that God did, which is to say it is eternal. Asking what happened before and after the Trinity came about would be like asking "did the color blue smell differently before and after it came about".

thejeff wrote:

yoyoyoy wrote:

The bible does say shell fish are a no-no. But most Christians like shell fish so they skip over that part and focus on the gay marriage section.

You are confusing Ritual Law, which Jesus fulfilled (thus we are no longer bound by it...shellfish and Under Armour are ok! Thanks Jesus!) with Moral Law (which we are still bound by... murder and theft still bad! Thanks Jesus!)

Jesus is very clear in the Gospel of Matthew that you must follow the laws of the prophets better than the pharisees in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

According to his own account, the Archangel Gabriel came to him and dictated this revelation to him. I imagine that you would do just as he did in the same circumstances.

Augusto E. Perez wrote:

thejeff wrote:

You are confusing Ritual Law, which Jesus fulfilled (thus we are no longer bound by it...shellfish and Under Armour are ok! Thanks Jesus!) with Moral Law (which we are still bound by... murder and theft still bad! Thanks Jesus!)

Jesus is very clear in the Gospel of Matthew that you must follow the laws of the prophets better than the pharisees in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

You are correct, he does say that. In context, however, he is saying that HE fulfills the law. He is, in other words, the way to heaven. (To exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees would have been thought to be impossible; it is essentially a rhetorical statement. Keep in mind, the Pharisees are portrayed as hypocrites: they kept he law on the outside, but their hearts were cold and hard.)

Context matters :-)

Augusto E. Perez wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Mohammed was in a real bind. Here, he had Jesus speaking truth. However, he felt that Meccans had strayed too far into polytheism, so that the concept of the Trinity was confusing to them. What to do? He changed how Jesus represented himself. Since Mohammed portrayed Jesus as a regular man (and not the Son of God), Muslims have no problem honoring him as such.

The "Trinity thing came about" at the exact same time that God did, which is to say it is eternal. Asking what happened before and after the Trinity came about would be like asking "did the color blue smell differently before and after it came about".

According to his own account, the Archangel Gabriel came to him and dictated this revelation to him. I imagine that you would do just as he did in the same circumstances.

One of two things happened, then.

1. God, the author of truth and love, decided to trick us by first telling us "(Jesus) is the way, the truth, and the life, and that nobody comes to the father except thru (Him)", and then telling us thru Mohammed "Just kidding, Jesus was never my son, I hope you didn't believe that"

...or...

2. Mohammed made it up.

Given the amount of Biblical information that Mohammed contradicts, I lean towards choice 2.

I don't pray for myself. wrote:

Prayer can work if you believe in prayer. But you can't expect your prayers to be answered every time you're having a picnic and are hoping for good weather. Prayer doesn't work that way.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Could you explain further how prayer "works"?

I'm not sure he could be more clear on this. Have Heaven and Earth passed away? In that case, everything hasn't been done and the law still applies.

I struggle to recall my religious teachings from my childhood, which was very long ago, but I believe Jesus was a proponent of the Golden Rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That rule is accepted in very similar form, at least on the surface, by all major religions. To my way of thinking, that should be the first and most important rule, or "prime directive" if you like, with all other so-called rules (ten commandments, sharia law, whatever) falling from (and honoring) it, and not vice versa.

I think that's what jesus was aiming at in all his sideways remarks about the pharisees. And I think it's been largely forgotten (or at least fallen out of primary importance) by ALL the major religions. Although I note that the current pope, Francis, is struggling against his own church to refocus on the golden rule.

If everyone could agree to follow that rule, we wouldn't need to invent 5999 different false deities to oppose (and one true one to believe in, for those who believe).

And ironically, I could point out that strict observance of the Golden Rule would prevent debates such as this. The faithful on here no more want me challenging their faith than I want them stuffing their faith down my throat...

thejeff wrote:

Augusto E. Perez wrote:

According to his own account, the Archangel Gabriel came to him and dictated this revelation to him. I imagine that you would do just as he did in the same circumstances.

One of two things happened, then.

1. God, the author of truth and love, decided to trick us by first telling us "(Jesus) is the way, the truth, and the life, and that nobody comes to the father except thru (Him)", and then telling us thru Mohammed "Just kidding, Jesus was never my son, I hope you didn't believe that"

...or...

2. Mohammed made it up.

Given the amount of Biblical information that Mohammed contradicts, I lean towards choice 2.

Only two possibilities? The Gospel of John could not represent what Jesus actually said. It was written in a language Jesus didn't preach in, and it was written by people that never knew Jesus. This is especially clear in the beginning of John 3, when Nicodemus is confused by Jesus telling him that he needs to be born above in order to enter the Kingdom of God, since the Greek word for above is the same word for again, and Nicodemus asks how he could possible exit his mother's womb again, and Jesus makes it clear he's using the word as meaning "above." Because this above-again word exists in Greek but not in Aramaic, and because we know that Jesus would have been preaching in Aramaic and not Greek, that the conversation as written didn't happen.

The pious can also consider that just as after Noah and Moses, the people of the Earth needed a new revelation to bring them into communion with the God of Abraham, that the message had been corrupted sufficiently in the centuries from the time of Jesus to Mohammed that another intervention was required.

If you believe that God sent his message to humanity through Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jesus, it's not hard to believe it happened again. What would you do if you were in Mohammed's place and Gabriel told you that you were to be a prophet for God? Deny him because Paul of Tarsus said that there was no more revelation to be had? Paul was a man and this is angel that's come to you. Would you doubt the veracity of Gabriel's claims and in doing so, risk doubting the God of Abraham and his messenger? What would be your standard of proof to believe that the God you worship has truly commanded this for you and you are to take on this mission?

long time failed catholic wrote:

Golden Rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That rule is accepted in very similar form, at least on the surface, by all major religions.

Accepted? They all claim to have authored it, along with just about every other social more or behavioral rule that has existed since prehistory.

None of which are universal because they're trumped by nature. When life gets down to the nitty gritty it's not always in people's best interest to get along with other people. Survival comes first.

It would be bad enough if religions merely posed as the inventors of good behavior. But no, they have to be the source of life, create the world, plan the world's destruction, and hound you mercilessly forever and ever after death too. They inevitably become a political force and end up seeking absolute power over people's lives. Secular government in the modern world is currently in serious jeopardy, the way things are stirred up between the various fanatics.