Stagger Lee wrote:
thejeff wrote:More to the point: I do not understand why many atheists readily accept that the "universe has always existed", but they scoff at the idea that "God has always existed".
That would be because I can empirically verify that a universe exists. God? Not so much.
Somebody will "refute" that with a "The Matrix" logic.
Earth to Jeff wrote:
Darwinian evolution is not observable, scientists cannot come up with a change in kind or change in species. What we are left with is a belief.
I don't know if anyone responded to this yet, but your assertion is demonstrably untrue:
http://news.discovery.com/animals/zoo-animals/fish-evolution-conservation.htmOther examples of speciation include: the evening primrose into O. gigas, the kew primrose created from two other crossed species, tragopogon produced by hybridization of T. dubius and T. pratensi. There are dozens of examples.
I believe one of these religions or many of its adherents believe that if you don't accept a particular savior you're doomed
^
Thus they're not the same god
coach wrote:
^
Thus they're not the same god
But it is the same God, however Satan has lead many followers astray. Satan's earthly preachers are telling their flocks that Jesus is not the Son of God, but is yet to come. Thus gaining more souls for him to torment in hades. Satan is one slick but messed up fallen angel.
Can I get into heaven if I don't believe in Jesus then? Can I get into heaven if I eat bacon?
coach wrote:
Can I get into heaven if I don't believe in Jesus then? Can I get into heaven if I eat bacon?
Many people have death bed epiphanies, so, perhaps.
Eating bacon? Sure why not. Catholics have no rules regarding the consumption of swine.
To Coach wrote:
coach wrote:Can I get into heaven if I don't believe in Jesus then? Can I get into heaven if I eat bacon?
Many people have death bed epiphanies, so, perhaps.
Eating bacon? Sure why not. Catholics have no rules regarding the consumption of swine.
The bible does say shell fish are a no-no. But most Christians like shell fish so they skip over that part and focus on the gay marriage section.
coach wrote:
Can I get into heaven if I don't believe in Jesus then? Can I get into heaven if I eat bacon?
Heaven was around before Jesus, no?
Bacon is fine as long as you repent or some such bs.
What the What wrote:
thejeff wrote:There was a double blind study (that, of course, I cannot find, lol) that showed that medical patients being prayed for had significantly better recoveries than patients who were not prayed for. (Patients did not know they were part of an experiment or that they were being prayed for). No idea the sample size.
Well, you made an effort - kudos to you.
1) As noted above, it may be that thejeff couldn't find the study because it doesn't exist. The one that I linked to (which seems to be the "biggie" in such research) found that intercessory prayer by itself had no effect, positive or negative; but that knowledge of being prayed for had a slight, but statistically significant, negative effect.
2) There's no reason to think that people get to *choose* their beliefs--or, perhaps more accurately: get to choose what they find believable or not believable. (Yes, possibly people can choose to *act* as though they believe or don't, but that's something different.)
3) As a result of point 2, I think it's best if we all have a live-and-let-live attitude and avoid using, or advocating the use of, the power/money of government to try to impose our philosophies on others.
4) I do think atheist* still has pretty much a negative connotation...and not unreasonably, given that it's only a "not." IMHO it would be more productive if atheists were to spend more time advocating *for* the use of reason and evidence, and less advocating for unbelief; and more time asking for any reason to think that a "deity" is currently at work in the universe, and less arguing about stuff that allegedly happened thousands, millions, or billions of years ago. That was then; this is now.
*I wish more people would spell the word right--but then, while I'm at it, I also wish more people would correctly spell the past tense of "to lead" as "led." And as long as I'm wishing: I'd like a pony.
Religion is a farce. Ever wonder why it just so happens that the religion that you were brought up in tends to THE one and only correct choice? Man, how lucky YOU were to be born in the family and area of the world that just so happens to worship the one true god!
lol idiots.
aquafina wrote:
Religion is a farce. Ever wonder why it just so happens that the religion that you were brought up in tends to THE one and only correct choice?
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.
http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-the-easy-confidence-with-which-i-know-another-man-s-religion-is-folly-teaches-me-to-suspect-that-my-mark-twain-219860.jpgHey Jeff
1. I think you misunderstood my comment about faith and science. My point is that both sides have faith (one side has faith in a Savior, the other side has faith in the scientific method.) Both have faith that their choice will bring them the results they hope to find.
I disagree, completely, that anyone 'believes' in the scientific method. People believe in angels and goblins and witchcraft and unicorns.
Nor do I agree that scientists have faith that "their choice will bring them results they hope to find". They understand that the methodology of science will often show things to be one way or another, or another, or a myriad different ways, or, sometimes, nothing at all.
Making sh** up: I take issue with this. The Bible regularly teaches with parables and allegory. It also regularly teaches by presenting actual historical events. Figuring out which is intended in a given passage is not random guesswork; on the contrary, linguists have studied how the Hebrew and Greek was used and compared it to thousands of other manuscripts.
Well, of course you take issue with it. Otherwise you wouldn't have simply made sh** up earlier. You completely & arbitrarily made up an interpretation of what a 'day' is in a single discrete usage of the term in one passage (well, it's there twice, see below) passage in the bible. Nowhere else in the text/s (or anywhere else) does it mean what you've decided it might mean here. You did that purely to make the story fit your narrative. No more, no less.
Creation Story: Yes, the Biblical one. To use your words, to say there are 2 creation stories "illustrates a complete misunderstanding" of Genesis. Genesis 2 goes into great detail about an even in Genesis 1. Yes, there are hundreds of others, but I will not speak for them.
There are 2 different chronologies in the biblical story of creation. Reread your bible.
Similar consciences: Humans, across the board, recognize that murder, rape, theft, lying, and more are "wrong", and that their inverses are "right". There are exceptions, certainly, that are due to indoctrination, mental illness, or even simple caving to temptation. But, there is certainly a universal "right" and "wrong".
So you've named 4.
4 behaviors/values out of how many tens of thousands might there be that you think are universal.
And they're NOT universal. Who defines "murder"? What is it? Capital punishment? The most devout folks in the world have routinely murdered people, and done so in the name of their value system/religion, which of course, is the source of their 'conscience' telling them how wrong murder is.
Do you know that there have been some cultures on earth who didn't even have a word for rape; because it simply didn't exist there.
"theft" isn't universally perceived to be wrong at all. It hinges upon the completely anthropogenic system of possession and ownership. In Australia, for example, one thing the white folks routinely accused the native folks of was, for a long time, being itinerant thieves .. never mind that being a culture with zero sense of individual or collective ownership, the aborigine culture had zero sense of thievery.
The world is a lot broader than you think it is.
5. Atheists claiming science already holds the answers. Chalk up my comment to a small sample size, then, on both our parts :-)
a) you conflate atheism with science, for some bizarre reason.
b) anyone with even a cursory understanding of science contends that science has a long way to go to finds all the answers. And hence, those people "science".
6. On what grounds do I deny thousands of other gods? For one, polytheism is logically unsupportable. You simply cannot have multiple omnipotent gods.
... but you're defining what 'god' is extremely narrowly. You're also not writing contradictory arguments .. earlier you scoffed at the 'can god create a rock he cannot lift' argument, but here you've essentially just raised the question again (and done on the grounds of "logic". it's logical unsupportable that an omnipotent god cannot do this.
Who says god has to be singular and/or omnipotent?
here's a very simple explanation of why polytheism is perfectly supportable. How can there be a multitude of perfectly omnipotent gods and goddesses?
Gods work in mysterious ways.
That eliminates 99.999999% of the other gods out there[/quote[
No it doesn't.
[quote]You are left with 3 monotheistic beliefs: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Really?
Nonsense.
Pythagorus preached for monotheism, and he wasn't bowing down to Allah.
How bout the Bahá'à Faith?
There have been numerous monotheistic religious cultures around the world. Particularly among indigenous peoples of Africa and Asia.
I consider Christianity to be the fulfillment of the God that Judaism teaches, and Islam to be a perversion of that one God. There is plenty of support for this claim beyond "faith", though I consider "faith" to be a key component of my belief.
Really? What support is there for Islam to be a perversion? And why is your claim any different to a Jew saying the same thing about Xianity? Or, I support, an atheist saying that about any religous belief?
[quote] For instance, you can look at the % chance that Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy, for instance. You can look at Mohammad's personal stake in swaying Meccans, his exposure to Roman Christianity, and his perversion of accepted Biblical teachings of the time. [/quote[
One could just as easily look at JC's pervasion of accepted biblical teachings of his time, as well. It wasn't just the Romans who weren't down with him.
If you care to respond, I'll read it, but probably won't respond again here. Time constraints and all.
Prayer works because God is jealous, wrathful, vengeful, mysterious, spiteful and insecure, and need constant supplication, subservience and validation to assure Him that He is the One and Only. Kind of like a Roman emperor but he doesn't shave.
Snooze Alarm wrote:
Prayer works because God is jealous, wrathful, vengeful, mysterious, spiteful and insecure, and need constant supplication, subservience and validation to assure Him that He is the One and Only. Kind of like a Roman emperor but he doesn't shave.
From what I've seen in this thread so far prayer apparently DOESN'T work. (Okay, it makes the pray-er feel better. That's not nothing by the way.)
So maybe God isn't those things after all?
Snooze Alarm wrote:
Prayer works because God is jealous, wrathful, vengeful, mysterious, spiteful and insecure, and need constant supplication, subservience and validation to assure Him that He is the One and Only. Kind of like a Roman emperor but he doesn't shave.
and.... he only listens to you IF.. you say it on a sunday, in a special building, wearing nice clothes, .... and give 10% of your income to the church.
An unexplained Higher Power. wrote:
Just Saying.... wrote:Does any religion explain how their god was created? The god who created god is the deity I want to worship.
A common argument from atheists and skeptics is that if all things need a cause, then God must also need a cause. The conclusion is that if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God). This is a slightly more sophisticated form of the basic question “Who made God?†Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. So, if God is a “something,†then He must have a cause, right?
The question is tricky because it sneaks in the false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. The answer is that the question does not even make sense. It is like asking, “What does blue smell like?†Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated—He simply exists.
How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.
Come on now, you've made at least one assertion (premise) that fall into the category: "that's what I believe". Just saying, "God is the uncaused Being", does Not follow from your reasoning!
rhae wrote:
Snooze Alarm wrote:Prayer works because God is jealous, wrathful, vengeful, mysterious, spiteful and insecure, and need constant supplication, subservience and validation to assure Him that He is the One and Only. Kind of like a Roman emperor but he doesn't shave.
From what I've seen in this thread so far prayer apparently DOESN'T work. (Okay, it makes the pray-er feel better. That's not nothing by the way.)
So maybe God isn't those things after all?
I believe in prayer, but I don't pray for my self. I will on occasion pray for others or their families, but I try not wasting Gods time listening my prayers hoping I win the powerball jackpot or some other self-centered desire.
Prayer can work if you believe in prayer. But you can't expect your prayers to be answered every time you're having a picnic and are hoping for good weather. Prayer doesn't work that way.
It doesn't matter who you pray for. What matters is that you recognize your own powerlessness and must invoke His superior powers to gain favor with the fate that He and only He has determined. You have supplicated and validated in the way that He desires and requires. So get on your knees before the Almighty.
I don't pray for myself. wrote:
rhae wrote:From what I've seen in this thread so far prayer apparently DOESN'T work. (Okay, it makes the pray-er feel better. That's not nothing by the way.)
So maybe God isn't those things after all?
I believe in prayer, but I don't pray for my self. I will on occasion pray for others or their families, but I try not wasting Gods time listening my prayers hoping I win the powerball jackpot or some other self-centered desire.
Prayer can work if you believe in prayer. But you can't expect your prayers to be answered every time you're having a picnic and are hoping for good weather. Prayer doesn't work that way.
Snooze Alarm wrote:
It doesn't matter who you pray for. What matters is that you recognize your own powerlessness and must invoke His superior powers to gain favor with the fate that He and only He has determined. You have supplicated and validated in the way that He desires and requires. So get on your knees before the Almighty.
I don't pray for myself. wrote:I believe in prayer, but I don't pray for my self. I will on occasion pray for others or their families, but I try not wasting Gods time listening my prayers hoping I win the powerball jackpot or some other self-centered desire.
Prayer can work if you believe in prayer. But you can't expect your prayers to be answered every time you're having a picnic and are hoping for good weather. Prayer doesn't work that way.
Amen!!!
