Remember when "atheist" had a negative connotation?

thejeff wrote:

Joe or Something Else wrote:

Maybe because one can see trees and shit - you know, stuff that comprises the observable universe.

You could see trees and shit infinity-ish years ago?

Or, do you assume that anything you can see now has always existed?

I am having trouble seeing your point.

Bottom line: if you go back far enough, you will come to an uncreated Creator. (Whether or not you capitalize the "C" in "Creator" is a discussion for another day.)

C'mon dude, I know you are not a complete simpleton.

But just in case, the point being that it only takes one leap of faith to get from observable stuff to "always existed" but it takes two leaps of faith to get from nothing observable at all to 1) exists and 2) existed forever.

erds wrote:

Its just a fact that mohammad tore the moon in half and rode on the back of a winged horse to heaven....

Whats so unusual about that?

Or Adam and Eve?

A woman made from the rib bone of a man?

6000 year old earth?

Sure, and we wonder why cultures live in squalor and massacre each other.

I am afraid you are "mixing your metaphors", so to speak :-)

Re: 6,000 year old earth: we discussed this earlier :-) Fundamentalism: bad, lol

thejeff wrote:

There was a double blind study (that, of course, I cannot find, lol) that showed that medical patients being prayed for had significantly better recoveries than patients who were not prayed for. (Patients did not know they were part of an experiment or that they were being prayed for). No idea the sample size.

Well, you made an effort - kudos to you.

But prayer having an impact? Seriously? So, did God not know about the condition of the medical patients without being alerted to it through prayer? Was He (She) unsure of whether or not to intervene without the guidance of those praying?

It's funny because I feel that the negative connotation to the word "atheist" is recently developed. I can't help but picture neckbeards wearing fedoras in their mom's basements, droning on about how much smarter they are than everyone else, and calling anyone who doesn't agree with them "sheeple".

I'm not saying that a high percentage of atheist fit this stereotype, just that the word "atheist" now carries this connotation.

thejeff wrote:

Yeahway wrote:

At least you realize that those three share the same imaginary God. So many think Allah is some other dude.

I would stop short of using the words "share" and "imaginary" :-)

At least you realize that all three are squabbling over who is the favorite son of the fictitious big guy.

Joe or Something Else wrote:

thejeff wrote:

You could see trees and shit infinity-ish years ago?

Or, do you assume that anything you can see now has always existed?

I am having trouble seeing your point.

Bottom line: if you go back far enough, you will come to an uncreated Creator. (Whether or not you capitalize the "C" in "Creator" is a discussion for another day.)

C'mon dude, I know you are not a complete simpleton.

But just in case, the point being that it only takes one leap of faith to get from observable stuff to "always existed" but it takes two leaps of faith to get from nothing observable at all to 1) exists and 2) existed forever.

I am with you. The leap of faith is much smaller, tho, from "stuff has always existed" to "God has always existed". You are already almost there! Here, have some Kool Aid! :-)

Yeahway wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I would stop short of using the words "share" and "imaginary" :-)

At least you realize that all three are squabbling over who is the favorite son of the fictitious big guy.

The Big Guy you speak of is a huge oversimplification. My point was that Jews, Christians, and Muslims do NOT "share" the same God. They claim a common ancestry, and they all agree that there is ONE God, but that is very different from saying that they believe in the SAME God.

erds wrote:

Its just a fact that mohammad tore the moon in half and rode on the back of a winged horse to heaven....

Whats so unusual about that?

Or Adam and Eve?

A woman made from the rib bone of a man?

6000 year old earth?

Sure, and we wonder why cultures live in squalor and massacre each other.

Creation story of Christianity is a myth, even the bible itself basically states that. By all the sudden there being other humans for Cain and Abel to marry

Jeff, it's my understanding Jews, Christians, and Muslims do believe in the same God. Where they first begin to party ways is, who they think Jesus was. Then it's all down hill after that.

thejeff wrote:

Yeahway wrote:

I would stop short of using the words "share" and "imaginary" :-)

At least you realize that all three are squabbling over who is the favorite son of the fictitious big guy.

The Big Guy you speak of is a huge oversimplification. My point was that Jews, Christians, and Muslims do NOT "share" the same God. They claim a common ancestry, and they all agree that there is ONE God, but that is very different from saying that they believe in the SAME God.[/quote ]

Sure they share the same one. Each religion segued from one to the other and had no issues with acknowledging this at the time that each religion "happened".

You guys just can't admit that now and try to change the story.

Doesn't change the facts though.

It's My Understanding wrote:

Jeff, it's my understanding Jews, Christians, and Muslims do believe in the same God. Where they first begin to party ways is, who they think Jesus was. Then it's all down hill after that.

Jesus is a pretty prominent figure in Islam. Funny since they don't believe in the same God. ;)

It's My Understanding wrote:

Jeff, it's my understanding Jews, Christians, and Muslims do believe in the same God. Where they first begin to party ways is, who they think Jesus was. Then it's all down hill after that.

Here, this ought to clear it up for you.

It's My Understanding wrote:

Jeff, it's my understanding Jews, Christians, and Muslims do believe in the same God. Where they first begin to party ways is, who they think Jesus was. Then it's all down hill after that.

That is a misunderstanding that is more than simple semantics. For example, I am a Trinitarian Monotheist: I believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 aspects of the same One God. That is a huge defining characteristic of what God is. Jews and Muslims would consider my reverence of the Son and Holy Spirit to be heresy. Without the atonement of Jesus Christ, our view of God changes tremendously. So, although all three religions "claim" the same God in the historical sense, they do not "worship" the same God, or at least, they hold widely differing attributes of God.

and then the red sea got parred, where some guys escaped and when the bad guys tried chasing after them..it closed up again!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, is there any 6 year old kid thats really going to believe that?

The Ark?????? seriously?????

Yeahway wrote:

It's My Understanding wrote:

Jeff, it's my understanding Jews, Christians, and Muslims do believe in the same God. Where they first begin to party ways is, who they think Jesus was. Then it's all down hill after that.

Jesus is a pretty prominent figure in Islam. Funny since they don't believe in the same God. ;)

They believe that Jesus is an important historical figure, yes. They also bellieve him to be a great prophet.

They also distort his teachings, since it didn't fit Mohammed's agenda for Jesus to claim that he was the Son of Man (which is a claim of his deity).

thejeff wrote:

It's My Understanding wrote:

Jeff, it's my understanding Jews, Christians, and Muslims do believe in the same God. Where they first begin to party ways is, who they think Jesus was. Then it's all down hill after that.

That is a misunderstanding that is more than simple semantics. For example, I am a Trinitarian Monotheist: I believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 aspects of the same One God. That is a huge defining characteristic of what God is. Jews and Muslims would consider my reverence of the Son and Holy Spirit to be heresy. Without the atonement of Jesus Christ, our view of God changes tremendously. So, although all three religions "claim" the same God in the historical sense, they do not "worship" the same God, or at least, they hold widely differing attributes of God.

Irrelevant what you do after the fact. You all still believe in the same "one" God.

It should be heresy for Muslims to even acknowledge Jesus at all when another religion claims that he is the chosen one.

Was your God a different one before and after the whole trinity thing came about?

thejeff wrote:

Yeahway wrote:

Jesus is a pretty prominent figure in Islam. Funny since they don't believe in the same God. ;)

They believe that Jesus is an important historical figure, yes. They also bellieve him to be a great prophet.

They also distort his teachings, since it didn't fit Mohammed's agenda for Jesus to claim that he was the Son of Man (which is a claim of his deity).

A prophet of who?

thejeff wrote:

More to the point: I do not understand why many atheists readily accept that the "universe has always existed", but they scoff at the idea that "God has always existed".

That would be because I can empirically verify that a universe exists. God? Not so much.

thejeff wrote:

It's My Understanding wrote:

Jeff, it's my understanding Jews, Christians, and Muslims do believe in the same God. Where they first begin to party ways is, who they think Jesus was. Then it's all down hill after that.

That is a misunderstanding that is more than simple semantics. For example, I am a Trinitarian Monotheist: I believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 aspects of the same One God. That is a huge defining characteristic of what God is. Jews and Muslims would consider my reverence of the Son and Holy Spirit to be heresy. Without the atonement of Jesus Christ, our view of God changes tremendously. So, although all three religions "claim" the same God in the historical sense, they do not "worship" the same God, or at least, they hold widely differing attributes of God.

And I am a Roman Catholic who also believes in the Holy Trinity. The Jews and Muslims don't. However all three religions believe in the same God. This God only has one P.O. Box not three.

They don't share the same Faith as Catholics when it involves the Son and the Holy Spirit, but they do share the same Faith as Catholics with "I am who I am" or God in Heaven.

Please don't try playing your protestant semantics BS with Roman Catholics, it doesn't go over very well :-(