Remember when "atheist" had a negative connotation?

He punishes sin? How? If Jesus paid the price doesn't everyone else now get away with it?

Poor Jesus.

Poor Jesus, indeed. His sacrifice was sufficient for all the sins of all mankind, although not everyone will accept His gift. Can you imagine sacrificing yourself, not just for a complete stranger, but for someone who actively hates you? Amazing stuff.

thejeff wrote:

You are focusing on a tiny portion of our existence (the part where we are here on earth and presently conscious of) at the expense of all of eternity. At one point, you thought a lego set was your entire existence. Later, you thought some girl was your entire existence. Now, you think your life here on earth is your entire existence.

Did you not go through trials and hardships as you trained to be an athlete? Was there not a reward on the other end? Yes, cancer and murder seem far worse than off season conditioning, but heaven is incalculably greater than winning a 5k :-)

This is what Southern Baptist slaveholders told their slaves: we know this life is awful and full of suffering, but don't focus on it and just get through it, believe in Jesus as you lord and savior and the life everlasting and the reward to come for all this hardship will so indescribably better than this dump, it will all be worth it.

That's what you told me just there, without addressing any of my specific points.

So this life is so insignificant to what's to come. Have you been blessed with anything in your life? You believe god will sometimes heal the sick with the power of prayer in this incredibly insignificant fraction of existence?

thejeff wrote:

Sloetry in Motion wrote:

A benevolent, just child murderer.

The cognitive dissonance must be painful. I've often heard people say that when they became an atheist everything became so much clearer because they could stop trying to rationalize their god belief with reality. When you figure out why you have to make excuses for the things you believe, you'll figure out why you should stop believing them.

I am sorry you feel that way.

There is no rationalization; there are no excuses.

FWIW, I used to think the same way you do now.

No rationalization? Really?

How about a little thought experiment.

A child is starving to death and you have the ability to feed it with no possible negative consequences to yourself. What should we expect to happen next?

Someone you love is getting raped and you have the ability to stop it with no possible negative consequences to yourself. What should we expect to happen next?

A friend of yours loses a limb and you have the power to regrow it with no possible negative consequences to yourself. What should we expect to happen next?

Now replace you in these scenarios with your god. I can guess the first thing that crosses your mind. It's not whether you should reconsider whether your god is as loving as you thought. It's not whether you reconsider if your relgious beliefs are incorrect. The first thing that crosses your mind is that you can explain why your god would act (or not act at all) in a way that no other loving being would in these situations. This is not reasoning, it's rationalization and excuse making.

Thing about it: You hold yourself to a higher standard than hold your god.

Don't give me that slavery garbage. People on both sides are guilty of twisting issues; we have been over that more than twice on this thread. Christians led the way to abolition.

I do not believe in the "health and wealth" gospel, no, although God has blessed me with an amazing family and a job I love. And this is nothing compared to what awaits us in heaven.

If you are a Believer in God you know that we are born on this earth with free will. If you are an unredeemable sinner you'll most likely not walk through the Gates of Heaven.

As to your retort, God is not a traffic cop. God does not intervene with most happenings. Sometimes your prayers will be answered, some times not.

It's a matter of having faith that you'll be rewarded for living a Christ like life.

I realize it impossible to make Non-Believers understand why God doesn't stop bad things from happening to good people. We are not suppose to judge God, God is suppose to judge us. If you had faith you'd understand. FYI, I don't judge you or like minded folks for their lack of faith. It's not my job to judge anyone.

For all you who lean on your own understanding and raise your extremely partial moral judgement above that of your infinitely wiser creator's, think about God's seemingly harsh actions this way: Is is a good idea to give your child whatever they want when they want it?

No, of course not. Children naturally want things that are not good for them in the long run. As a parent, your main duty, out of love, is to discipline your child, in an encouraging and constructive manner, in order to develop their character and prepare them for the real world.

So as a loving parent patiently disciplines his child, would not God who is your father in heaven, loving you so much more than your earthly father, discipline you ever the more diligently and patiently to prepare you for eternity? Oh yes he does!

Lean not on you own understanding. Do you really seek the truth or are you just wanting your own ideas to be true?

jamin in jail wrote:

If you are a Believer in God you know that we are born on this earth with free will. If you are an unredeemable sinner you'll most likely not walk through the Gates of Heaven.

As to your retort, God is not a traffic cop. God does not intervene with most happenings. Sometimes your prayers will be answered, some times not.

It's a matter of having faith that you'll be rewarded for living a Christ like life.

I realize it impossible to make Non-Believers understand why God doesn't stop bad things from happening to good people. We are not suppose to judge God, God is suppose to judge us. If you had faith you'd understand. FYI, I don't judge you or like minded folks for their lack of faith. It's not my job to judge anyone.

I don't want to have faith in your religion because every piece of evidence points to your religion being made up fiction.

Do you have a reliable way to tell when god does or does not intervene in human affairs?

What horrible platitudes and analogies.

What else can a person do but lean on their own understanding? You might turn to the Bible, but it's just because your understanding of the Bible. There's nothing you can turn to to figure things out in a situation except your understanding of the situation.

As for you analogy, your god doesn't simply provide safety and punishment. Your god sits idly by while horrible things happen to thousands of children every day and then punishes some of them for eternity. Your god would be considered a horrible parent by any reasonable standard.

So, let me get this straight: we disobey God's direct instructions, our world goes into the crapper, and we are supposed to blame God? We kick God out of our schools, our nation's government, and our homes, and yet he is to blame when bad things happen?

How can that possibly make sense to you?

Well at least you aren't trying to rationalize things anymore.

/s

Do you think you addressed any of the points I made?

thejeff wrote:

He punishes sin? How? If Jesus paid the price doesn't everyone else now get away with it?

Poor Jesus.

Poor Jesus, indeed. His sacrifice was sufficient for all the sins of all mankind, although not everyone will accept His gift. Can you imagine sacrificing yourself, not just for a complete stranger, but for someone who actively hates you? Amazing stuff.

So Charles Manson will be joining you? Sounds like fun.

Charlie the Christian wrote:

thejeff wrote:

He punishes sin? How? If Jesus paid the price doesn't everyone else now get away with it?

Poor Jesus.

Poor Jesus, indeed. His sacrifice was sufficient for all the sins of all mankind, although not everyone will accept His gift. Can you imagine sacrificing yourself, not just for a complete stranger, but for someone who actively hates you? Amazing stuff.

So Charles Manson will be joining you? Sounds like fun.

Was that a sarcasm fail or a reading comprehension fail? Doesn't really matter, I am just curious.

jeff, before God was allowed into your homes and government etc. the country was just fine.

You guys weren't here.

How did 'We" kick him out? I thought he was the guy with the power?

Sloetry in Motion wrote:

thejeff wrote:

So, let me get this straight: we disobey God's direct instructions, our world goes into the crapper, and we are supposed to blame God? We kick God out of our schools, our nation's government, and our homes, and yet he is to blame when bad things happen?

How can that possibly make sense to you?

Well at least you aren't trying to rationalize things anymore.

/s

Do you think you addressed any of the points I made?

I believe I did, by pointing out that they do not apply, yes.

Our Father who art in the WH wrote:

thejeff wrote:

So, let me get this straight: we disobey God's direct instructions, our world goes into the crapper, and we are supposed to blame God? We kick God out of our schools, our nation's government, and our homes, and yet he is to blame when bad things happen?

How can that possibly make sense to you?

How did 'We" kick him out? I thought he was the guy with the power?

Free will :-)

Sitting Bull wrote:

jeff, before God was allowed into your homes and government etc. the country was just fine.

You guys weren't here.

Yeah, sorry about the whole smallpox thing. And the Trail of Tears.

FWIW, Christian missionaries such as Bartolomo de las Casas and Evan Jones tried to stop it.

However, the actions of many so-called "Christians" during that era are indefensible.

thejeff wrote:

Sloetry in Motion wrote:

Well at least you aren't trying to rationalize things anymore.

/s

Do you think you addressed any of the points I made?

I believe I did, by pointing out that they do not apply, yes.

So god doesn't help innocent people worldwide being raped because the US no longer condones school prayer? So god does nothing while children starve to death by the thousands because those children's ancestor's didn't live up to god's impossibly high expectations?

But he loves us........

Your idea of love sounds a lot more like sadomasochism than anything someone reasonable would call love.

To your two points,

#1 I haven't mentioned lately what my Religion of God is, however it's Roman Catholic. And I'm not asking or trying to convince people to have Faith or Believe in The God of gods. And like I've mentioned before, once we die we'll find out who had the correct beliefs.

#1A What you call fiction and for the reasons you believe it so, I claim it to be Faith. Again, neither of us will ever be sure until the day we take our last breath.

#2 Personally, no I don't. Although history shows there have been people that have testified to having been Blessed with Divine Intervention. I don't know about you, but I was raised never to claim someone was a liar without proof. And since I'm a Roman Catholic I have Faith that when the Vatican says a Miracle occurred, then I believe them. Again if you choose not to, that's fine. I'll always be the last person to try to convince you otherwise.