Remember when "atheist" had a negative connotation?

No, he wishes YOU didn't believe God exists.

thejeff wrote:

A real Fukushima wrote:

1. No, I don't believe He exists. I was just pondering the depth of your madness.

2. But clearly you guys think he TRIED to be the Master of Puppets.

3. But if He knew everyone would disobey, why was He always speaking in a booming voice and killing kids etc.?

Imagine if someone tried to pull that sh*t today?

1. Oh. Ok.

2. No. I don't. (Is there more than one of me?)

3. Not sure what one has to do with the other.

Be honest. Are you drinking as you type this? I ask, because I am watching Drunk History right now, and your typing kinda sounds like their talking...

PUT DOWN THE BOTTLE, jeff

God

Stagger, my response for part 5 & 6 Deut 2:32-35 and Deut 3:3-7 btw, Numbers 21:21-35 is a parallel account

Biblical records and ancient monuments depicted them as a people of great size and strength. The prophet Amos, describes them in these words: "Thus says the Lord,'... It was I who destroyed the Amorite before them, though his height was like the height of cedars and he was strong as the oaks (Amos 2:9). Trivia: cedar trees can grow up to 35-40ft. The Amorites much like the Canaanites practiced witchcraft, worshipped idols, and sacrificed children. They were a wicked and depraved people who had no desire to follow God.

Israel was heading to the land that was promised to them but had to cross through Amorite territory. Moses dispatched messengers to King Sihon, to request peaceful passage. Sihon refused and furthermore sent his army to block the Israelites from passing through. Sihon had no fear of the Israelites. His army was well trained, better armed, physically much larger and stronger than the Israelites. Remember, the Amorites were giants. What King Sihon thought would be an easy battle for his mighty Amorites against the "puny" Israelites suddenly turned into a rout of the Amorites. He and his sons died that day. God gave the Israelites the land that once belonged to King Sihon.

King Og also chose to fight the Israelites and his army was routed, he and his sons also died. Had the Amorites let the Israelites through their land, they would have not been wiped out and the Israelites took over that land as well.

The Amorites were judged the same way as the Canaanites.

This is a bit of a derailing of the current conversational drift, but has anyone seen "The Propaganda Game"? It's a documentary where a Spanish filmmaker gets unfettered access to North Korea. It was surreal in a lot of ways, but what really stuck out was the way that Koreans view the entire world through a religious lens.

The Communist state didn't really eliminate religion so much as it merely supplanted the state and its leaders as God. The propaganda these people were exposed to from birth onward was staggering. Long story short, it made me realize why religious thought can be so irrational; whisper in someone's ear long enough and they can reconcile anything.

Bible and slavery, those last two sentences sum up all I can really say to your posts. It's the only way I can accept or even empathize with your viewpoints. I believe we're at an impasse on this point because genocide just ain't something I can rationalize from a supreme moral being.

Stagger, I think atheists are comparing the Amorites and Canaanites to the Jews during the Holocast. That is not a good example. Again, take a look at what the Canaanites’ practiced: rampant idolatry, incest, adultery, child sacrifice, and bestiality.

Given the evidence of Canaanite sin, it is no stretch to realize that even many young children would have already learned Canaanite ways. Thus, if God wanted to rid the world of their wickedness, then He couldn’t have them grow up wanting to imitate their birth parents with whom they bonded. Imagine the teenage rebellion in those households! Wouldn’t even infants, as they grew, begin to ask, “What practices did my parents do which resulted in your killing them?” As sad as this is, it also points to the horror of sin. Parents can corrupt their children.

And while we are on the subject of infants and children, where is the outrage from atheists for killing unborn babies? Sounds hypocritical to me. However, I don't want another abortion fight, we have the planned parenthood thread for that.

Btw, I have seen at least 15-20 documentaries about North Korea. That country is a hermit kingdom and the most isolated on earth. The people are forced to worship the "Great Leader" and "Dear Leader" everyday. Every building, every room has a picture of them. They have a pin on their shirts with the picture as well. Tourists are alway chaperoned, are told when they are allowed to take pictures. The indoctrination is amazing.

Bible and slavery wrote:

Stagger, I think atheists are comparing the Amorites and Canaanites to the Jews during the Holocast. That is not a good example. Again, take a look at what the Canaanites’ practiced: rampant idolatry, incest, adultery, child sacrifice, and bestiality.

"Rampant idolatry" supercedes slaughtering native Americans and enslaving Africans?

"Rampant idolatry" supercedes gas chambers?

Bible and slavery wrote:

Given the evidence of Canaanite sin, it is no stretch to realize that even many young children would have already learned Canaanite ways. Thus, if God wanted to rid the world of their wickedness, then He couldn’t have them grow up wanting to imitate their birth parents with whom they bonded. Imagine the teenage rebellion in those households! ......

Your God couldn't resolve teenage rebellion without resorting to infanticide? Doesn't seem very omnipotent to me.

Does not explain how animals ate without death. You're claiming that people were then exclusively vegetarian. And didn't eat anything that doing so would kill it.

Nor does it make sense that if death didn't exist until Eve's "sin" happened, that your God would've threatened these people with death ... Given they would have ZERO inkling of what that actually meant. Doesn't seem fair.

Don't play the fool. Death didn't exist, is your claim. Wouldn't that inevitably lead to a crowded, if not overpopulated, world?

So you're now saying that (a) children inevitably disobey everything their parents tell them? And (b) you don't understand the difference between pre-ordained and free will.

It seems odd that what a creator of infinite power, governing everthing from the level of the quark to 100 quadrillion visible stars, most needs is our belief in its existence in the absence of direct evidence.

He is an incredible needy SOB, isn't he? I wouldn't want to live forever with that loser.

not on my knees wrote:

It seems odd that what a creator of infinite power, governing everthing from the level of the quark to 100 quadrillion visible stars, most needs is our belief in its existence in the absence of direct evidence.

not on my knees wrote:

It seems odd that what a creator of infinite power, governing everthing from the level of the quark to 100 quadrillion visible stars, most needs is our belief in its existence in the absence of direct evidence.

Needs? No.

What is more likely:

-That an all-loving god once decided that killing children and slavery was just fine, or

-That some primitive barbaric people wrote a book and claimed the things they did were justified by their god?

There's a reason you have to make excuses to try to reconcile your beliefs with reality. It's because your beliefs are incorrect. God doesn't exist. He's just a character in a story that you tell yourself.

I am sorry that you feel that way.

There is no reconciliation; there are no excuses. God is ultimately benevolent, but he is also perfectly just. He punishes sin. Jesus paid the price for that sin, and I am grateful.

thejeff wrote:

I am sorry that you feel that way.

There is no reconciliation; there are no excuses. God is ultimately benevolent, but he is also perfectly just. He punishes sin. Jesus paid the price for that sin, and I am grateful.

A benevolent, just child murderer.

The cognitive dissonance must be painful. I've often heard people say that when they became an atheist everything became so much clearer because they could stop trying to rationalize their god belief with reality. When you figure out why you have to make excuses for the things you believe, you'll figure out why you should stop believing them.

Sloetry in Motion wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I am sorry that you feel that way.

There is no reconciliation; there are no excuses. God is ultimately benevolent, but he is also perfectly just. He punishes sin. Jesus paid the price for that sin, and I am grateful.

A benevolent, just child murderer.

The cognitive dissonance must be painful. I've often heard people say that when they became an atheist everything became so much clearer because they could stop trying to rationalize their god belief with reality. When you figure out why you have to make excuses for the things you believe, you'll figure out why you should stop believing them.

I am sorry you feel that way.

There is no rationalization; there are no excuses.

FWIW, I used to think the same way you do now.

thejeff wrote:

I am sorry that you feel that way.

There is no reconciliation; there are no excuses. God is ultimately benevolent, but he is also perfectly just. He punishes sin. Jesus paid the price for that sin, and I am grateful.

thejeff,

There are a number of problems with this. Whatever god does is, by definition, good to you. The end result of every scenario is that god is good. Even the most horrible, despicable things are reasoned away.

God let Satan kill Job's entire family as a test of his faith. Ultimately, Job was given a new wife and children, but what about his first family? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think you would counter that Job's family was still guilty of original sin and could be killed on a whim for having been guilty of what their ancestors did (which is shocking) or that being killed actually isn't so bad since you get to be in Heaven, in which case, death is a great thing, so everyone should just die now and go to paradise, except that we're supposed to suffer through this abominable life we're left with since the eviction from the Garden of Eden to prepare us for Heaven.

And then what about children that die before they can know god? They get a free pass to heaven, so lucky them. And what about children that aren't even born with developed brains? They never have a mind. But I think you would say that they have a soul and that god will take care of them. Then it's not true that accepting Jesus/God as your savior is the only path to eternal salvation: an early death at a young age will also do.

It's just whatever made up explanation for anything. The Midianites were idolators so the all-loving, all-knowing, benevolent god cast a plague on the fornicating Midianites and Israelites and then pulled it back after Phinehas stuck a spear through a Midianite/Israelite couple who were having sex. So people not worshiping god and the people socializing with them were punished. So people that defy god are punished. Got it.

But then someone like Joseph Stalin, an atheist who made himself into a secular religion and killed millions of his own people (and sent many of them straight to Heaven) died comfortably in his own bed. He broke all sorts of commandments, so where's his punishment? Eternal punishment in hell.

So why wait for Stalin to die comfortably, but launch a plague against the Midianites and the Israelites fornicating with them? Because we can't begin to know god's mind or the ways in which he works. So if that's the case, how can you say with a straight face that god's doing this or that for what reason? When a kid has cancer, what do you pray for? That they're healed? That they die and go to heaven?

You've suggested that kids may day young because they might become mass murderers. Then all these abortions I'm sure you're disgusted with might be saving the world from all sorts of Hitlers and may be all part of god's plan. But then to take it further, if god is stopping some of these future mass murderers before they grow to use their free will to become horrible people, why is he doing it for some and not others? Because we don't know, we can't know and it's a mystery, but god has a plan for all of us. Is the kid with cancer defying god by undergoing treatment?

Tell me if I've gotten your feelings on any of this wrong.

I think the woman was made from a mans rib.....was the best deal though..

Then, god, made sure that the spot where the rib was removed was perfectly healed!!!!

The people who believe in these things....the Noahs Ark's, the 6000 year old earth, Adam and Eve....prophets tearing the moon in half and riding up to heaven on a winged horse

Are they people you want making decisions for you?

thejeff wrote:

Sloetry in Motion wrote:

What is more likely:

-That an all-loving god once decided that killing children and slavery was just fine, or

-That some primitive barbaric people wrote a book and claimed the things they did were justified by their god?

There's a reason you have to make excuses to try to reconcile your beliefs with reality. It's because your beliefs are incorrect. God doesn't exist. He's just a character in a story that you tell yourself.

I am sorry that you feel that way.

There is no reconciliation; there are no excuses. God is ultimately benevolent, but he is also perfectly just. He punishes sin. Jesus paid the price for that sin, and I am grateful.

He punishes sin? How? If Jesus paid the price doesn't everyone else now get away with it?

Poor Jesus.

You are focusing on a tiny portion of our existence (the part where we are here on earth and presently conscious of) at the expense of all of eternity. At one point, you thought a lego set was your entire existence. Later, you thought some girl was your entire existence. Now, you think your life here on earth is your entire existence.

Did you not go through trials and hardships as you trained to be an athlete? Was there not a reward on the other end? Yes, cancer and murder seem far worse than off season conditioning, but heaven is incalculably greater than winning a 5k :-)