Remember when "atheist" had a negative connotation?

Working on it :-)

I don't have the expertise to respond to them point by point, but I will do my best:

1. Authority: You recognize these things as bad. Rape is bad. Murder is bad. My question is: how do you know they are bad? If there is no God, then there are no absolutes, no moral standards. The standard you use then is your own. Without God, then, you would have no foundation upon which to make these moral judgements; they would all be relative. This raises an interesting question: on what authority are you judging God? You dismiss God's authority to judge others while simultaneously asserting your authority to judge others. This seems odd.

2. More to the point, just because the Bible records violent acts does not mean it endorses them. This is old hat in this thread. So for example, the raping of children. God doesn't support rape. Every narrative of what happened is not pleasing to God. In fact, if you stop to think about it, why would "a god" include information about Himself or His people that is not flattering? The point is to say, He is holy. And that His people are obviously not. God doesn't shy away from recording stories of sinful people doing sinful things. Other religions might hide their imperfections, but not Christianity. Christianity, separate from every other religion, shines the light on our imperfections and our total inability to be Holy. Hence the absolute need to cry out for dependence on God.

In the meantime, let me share a very interesting debate with you:

I am still working thru it myself, but they have already touched on several topics in this thread. Good stuff :-)

thejeff wrote:

In the Name of The Father wrote:

" Sorry, killing some babies in Africa and watching a gang rape, try later "

So he does exist!

You were uncertain?

I love the dodging and weaving that religious people do to confirm their beliefs and defy logic.

A simple question like why doesn't God smite the knives from the hands of Jihad John and his buddies is turned into this long meandering story that leaves the questioner befuddled by what his original question was.

Clearly they believe that God used to chip in on the behalf of his chosen and yet now?

Why Doesn't He? wrote:

I love the dodging and weaving that religious people do to confirm their beliefs and defy logic.

A simple question like why doesn't God smite the knives from the hands of Jihad John and his buddies is turned into this long meandering story that leaves the questioner befuddled by what his original question was.

Clearly they believe that God used to chip in on the behalf of his chosen and yet now?

So, God is a Helicopter Parent, then? :-)

I've just got a minute, so I'll give quick answers.

1. God endorses murder in the text. There really is no way around that. "If there is no God, then there are no absolutes, no moral standards." You've made an error in logic here. Saying there are no absolutes is, in itself, an absolute. The rest makes no sense since the premise is flawed.

I can dismiss God's authority because I have no evidence to suppose God exists. Also, for behavior to be considered moral, it must be universal and consistent. Moral inconsistency is something that the God of the Bible demonstrates again and again. To summarize, stating that there is no morality without God doesn't make it so. Can you demonstrate this? I didn't think so.

2. This is is a nice, verbal tap-dance: "Every narrative of what happened is not pleasing to God." Nope. You can't dance out of this one. This is straight from the horse's mouth:

“Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (I Samuel 15:2-3)

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” (Isaiah 13:15-16)

"Every narrative of what happened is not pleasing to God." God ORDERED these things. That is some serious cognitive dissonance.

..."why would 'a god' include information about Himself or His people that is not flattering?"

If God is omnipotent/omniscient and all merciful/just then there shouldn't be anything non-flattering about him, should there? The mental gymnastics it takes to shore up all of this bullsh*t is just baffling.

I apologize for getting a little angry in this post but, dammit, it's all written right there plain as day!

I was 99.99% sure, but always glad to get confirmation :-)

Also, if a person will rape and murder, and only not do these things because a god says so, then that person probably doesn't have any redeeming qualities anyway.

Stagger, I will address each of your Biblical excerpts later tonight.

Thejeff wrote:

Why Doesn't He? wrote:

I love the dodging and weaving that religious people do to confirm their beliefs and defy logic.

A simple question like why doesn't God smite the knives from the hands of Jihad John and his buddies is turned into this long meandering story that leaves the questioner befuddled by what his original question was.

Clearly they believe that God used to chip in on the behalf of his chosen and yet now?

So, God is a Helicopter Parent, then? :-)

He was apparently but now he's a deadbeat Dad that's 2000 years behind on child support.

You appear to be frightened by this question. Interesting.

The notion of praying to God for some sort of divine intervention has never made any sense to me. God's judgement is supposedly perfect. Why in the world would someone want to change God's mind about intervening? And even if one was fool enough to ask for a sub-optimal result (i.e., ANY result different than God's already existing intention) why would God grant the worse outcome?

Why Doesn't He? wrote:

Thejeff wrote:

So, God is a Helicopter Parent, then? :-)

He was apparently but now he's a deadbeat Dad that's 2000 years behind on child support.

Ha!

Quantum mechanics, dark matter, and dark energy explain all of that

Not Me wrote:

You appear to be frightened by this question. Interesting.

The notion of praying to God for some sort of divine intervention has never made any sense to me. God's judgement is supposedly perfect. Why in the world would someone want to change God's mind about intervening? And even if one was fool enough to ask for a sub-optimal result (i.e., ANY result different than God's already existing intention) why would God grant the worse outcome?

I have just learned that it is better to go by what the Bible says than what someone says the Bible says, especially with deeply spiritual matters such as prayer :-) I wrestled with the efficacy of prayer in the past, which is how I came upon the Bible study I gave you.

You want my honest answer? God is infinite. That means there is room for what looks like contradictions from our finite perspective. God can be completely sovereign and give us complete free will. God can accept out prayer without needing our worship. It really is an awesome thing.

Why Doesn't He? wrote:

Thejeff wrote:

So, God is a Helicopter Parent, then? :-)

He was apparently but now he's a deadbeat Dad that's 2000 years behind on child support.

lol nicely played :-)

Forgiven. You are asking awesome questions, and this is my first time trying to answer them... so thanks for your patience. FWIW, the poster "Bible and Slavery" is probably better read and more eloquent than I am, and I look forward to reading his reply as much as you do.

As an addendum to my previous remarks:

1. Sin is bad. God warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the garden or they would die. They directly disobeyed God's clear command. Rebellion against the God who created all says, "God, you cannot tell me what to do! I defy You!"

Their sin brought death into the world, brokenness to creation, and the warned and deserved punishment from God.

2. Some people want to judge God and tell Him He has no right to judge us... Or they might want to tell God He judged us too harshly. My problem with that response: The infinite, almighty, creator of all that is did not give a hint, or a suggestion, but a very clear warning: If you do this, then you will die.

If I tell a child, "Do not stare at the sun, or you will go blind," and the child goes ahead and defiantly stares at the sun and goes blind, is it my fault or the child's fault?

3. When God destroyed the whole earth with a flood, it was because they were wickedly defying God and hurting each other. When God had Israel destroy the nations in Palestine for Israel to come into the land, God tells us that they had grown so wicked, they filled up their quota of God's deserved punishment.

I imagine if I asked someone what he would do if someone violated his child right before his eyes, he would seek to punish him. If the man considered the act heinous enough, he might even want to impose more serious punishment on more serious offenders.

In most of the cases mentioned, people suffered due to their rebellion against God in thought, word and deed.

thejeff wrote:

Why Doesn't He? wrote:

He was apparently but now he's a deadbeat Dad that's 2000 years behind on child support.

lol nicely played :-)

Well, why doesn't he chip in anymore in such a dashing and flamboyant manner? Isn't He ageless? Such a fleeting career. Not much longer than Ryan Hall's in the less than grand scheme of things.

I remember asking my mother and Minister why "Bible times" ended. they had no answer either.

Pretty amazing shit happened at a time that we have no capacity to validate. Now that we all the tools, technology and knowledge, you get squat happening.

thejeff wrote:

2. Some people want to judge God and tell Him He has no right to judge us... Or they might want to tell God He judged us too harshly. My problem with that response: The infinite, almighty, creator of all that is did not give a hint, or a suggestion, but a very clear warning: If you do this, then you will die.

If I tell a child, "Do not stare at the sun, or you will go blind," and the child goes ahead and defiantly stares at the sun and goes blind, is it my fault or the child's fault?

You, the adult, didn't create the sun. You're giving fair warning about something out of your power. A more appropriate comparison would be if I were a dictator and I provided everything to the people I ruled except for education and I banned all reading and education as capital crimes. I, the dictator, have provided every worldly need to my people, but have forbidden them to learn, and will give them death if they defy me.

How do you know these things are "bad"?

This is unsupportable gibberish. Jeff, read this again. People all over the world, all all creeds or no creeds, have managed to develop moral standards.

As for "no absolutes" ... Your bible says thou shall not kill and promptly commands people to kill.

That's what being a grown up is all about.

Do you realise that countless species of other social animals have very similar moral codes to our own? These ideas are simply fundamental to living as a collective.

But really .... Don't kill and dont rape are what you have you have to show for listening to the omnipotent creator of all that is? Your God is all knowing and that's it? Penguins follow a pretty similar moral code, fwiw.

They ARE all relative. Weren't you lot arguing earlier that slavery was justified by the harsh economics of 2000-3000 years ago? (The correct answer is "yes")

On the authority of being an adult, and understanding that rape and murder don't play. And slavery.