Remember when "atheist" had a negative connotation?

Sloetry in Motion wrote:

This is why I dislike this topic. For every problem an atheist points out, the believer has a pre-made excuse at the ready to try to make sense of the problem. It doesn't matter how ludicrous the excuse or how improbable it is, nor does it matter that every improbable excuse must be true (making it exponentially less likely) for the religion to stand up, all that matters is having an excuse for why reality doesn't look as it should if the claims of the religion were true.

Most people would view the need to try to explain things away with improbably excuses as a huge red flag against the validity of the religion, but believers seem to wave their red flags around proudly.

Out of curiosity, why would someone who "dislikes this topic" bother to click on this thread? If by accident, why would he bother to read more than the first few lines of the first post before deciding"nope, not for me"? And why would he bother to take the time to then post on the thread?

One question that I have for the "believers" out there:

Often I hear the argument that every action has a cause or preceding action that precipitated it. There is no such thing as an uncaused cause. But we need a "First Cause" and therefore "God". Ignoring for a moment the logic (or lack thereof) here I think that nearly everyone who makes this argument also believes in free will.

So, here is my question: What is free will if not an "uncaused cause"?

I just clicked on a random page and reread some posts. This has been an epic thread, and we've covered the watershed. FWIW, I've enjoyed it, and hope it continues.

Stagger Lee wrote:

I just clicked on a random page and reread some posts. This has been an epic thread, and we've covered the watershed. FWIW, I've enjoyed it, and hope it continues.

same :-)

Btw, you are wrong about everything ;-)

Quest! wrote:

One question that I have for the "believers" out there:

Often I hear the argument that every action has a cause or preceding action that precipitated it. There is no such thing as an uncaused cause. But we need a "First Cause" and therefore "God". Ignoring for a moment the logic (or lack thereof) here I think that nearly everyone who makes this argument also believes in free will.

So, here is my question: What is free will if not an "uncaused cause"?

I am not sure I see the problem. God is the "uncaused cause", the "unmoved mover".

He could have made a universe full of puppets, but instead gave us free will.

Are you saying that, since God has free will, that free will had to pre-date God?

Great post.

I used to agree with this, and I still would if all we had was pain and suffering.

But, I have seen enough answered prayer to know(?) that that simply isn't the case. And I have seen enough unanswered prayers #garthbrooks to know that sometimes, what God has in store for us is better than even what we hoped for ourselves.

Why do Christians pray to God to save their cancer riddled family member rather than just saying "you lucky bast*rd He CHOSE you!"

Chris Gaines wrote:

Why do Christians pray to God to save their cancer riddled family member rather than just saying "you lucky bast*rd He CHOSE you!"

Outstanding question.

I would say that most mature believers DO recognize that the person on their deathbed is the lucky one... but conveying that to the loved ones of the dying person can be, um, tricky :-)

I try to pray for God's kingdom to be advanced on earth... and then, while acknowledging my own ignorance with regards to His plan, I do pray for supernatural healing in the meantime.

We ARE called to pray, but to pray in accordance with His will. Praying for OUR wishes for healing or for winning lottery tickets... not so much :-)

thejeff wrote:

Chris Gaines wrote:

Why do Christians pray to God to save their cancer riddled family member rather than just saying "you lucky bast*rd He CHOSE you!"

Outstanding question.

I would say that most mature believers DO recognize that the person on their deathbed is the lucky one... but conveying that to the loved ones of the dying person can be, um, tricky :-)

I try to pray for God's kingdom to be advanced on earth... and then, while acknowledging my own ignorance with regards to His plan, I do pray for supernatural healing in the meantime.

We ARE called to pray, but to pray in accordance with His will. Praying for OUR wishes for healing or for winning lottery tickets... not so much :-)

If it's all in His hands why make special requests?

I could never understand why people didn't make one single lump sum prayer as soon as they feel that there is a God AND END IT.

Chris Gaines wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Outstanding question.

I would say that most mature believers DO recognize that the person on their deathbed is the lucky one... but conveying that to the loved ones of the dying person can be, um, tricky :-)

I try to pray for God's kingdom to be advanced on earth... and then, while acknowledging my own ignorance with regards to His plan, I do pray for supernatural healing in the meantime.

We ARE called to pray, but to pray in accordance with His will. Praying for OUR wishes for healing or for winning lottery tickets... not so much :-)

If it's all in His hands why make special requests?

I could never understand why people didn't make one single lump sum prayer as soon as they feel that there is a God AND END IT.

The Bible teaches us to "pray without ceasing". The Bible also teaches us that God does indeed answer prayer, according to His perfect will.

If you are sincerely interested, let me share this Bible study with you:

I hope you find it as helpful as I did :-)

For me, it has never been a question of a god or no god. As one who has read the Bible and the Koran, I can state that the Christian and Islamic religions are disgusting. Raping children is not a good thing. Murdering children is not a good thing. Nailing people to wood is not a good thing. Committing genocide is not a good thing. Slavery is not a good thing. Forced abortions are not good things. You can on and on. Read the Bible. If you do, you will easily come to the moral conclusion that if that pervert god existed, then you would have to oppose him/her/it.

thejeff wrote:

Chris Gaines wrote:

If it's all in His hands why make special requests?

I could never understand why people didn't make one single lump sum prayer as soon as they feel that there is a God AND END IT.

The Bible teaches us to "pray without ceasing". The Bible also teaches us that God does indeed answer prayer, according to His perfect will.

If you are sincerely interested, let me share this Bible study with you:

http://www.ccwg.org/userdocs/images/files/new_belivers_outlines/single_workbooks/THE%20ASSURANCE-OF-ANSWERED-PRAYER.pdf

I hope you find it as helpful as I did :-)

Well aren't you ceasing when you spend a good part of your day posting on here?

thejeff wrote:

Stagger Lee wrote:

I just clicked on a random page and reread some posts. This has been an epic thread, and we've covered the watershed. FWIW, I've enjoyed it, and hope it continues.

same :-)

Btw, you are wrong about everything ;-)

You sound like my wife...

Chris Gaines wrote:

thejeff wrote:

The Bible teaches us to "pray without ceasing". The Bible also teaches us that God does indeed answer prayer, according to His perfect will.

If you are sincerely interested, let me share this Bible study with you:

http://www.ccwg.org/userdocs/images/files/new_belivers_outlines/single_workbooks/THE%20ASSURANCE-OF-ANSWERED-PRAYER.pdf

I hope you find it as helpful as I did :-)

Well aren't you ceasing when you spend a good part of your day posting on here?

Yup. And that doesn't cover 1/10th of the crap that I screw up :-/

Being Logical wrote:

For me, it has never been a question of a god or no god. As one who has read the Bible and the Koran, I can state that the Christian and Islamic religions are disgusting. Raping children is not a good thing. Murdering children is not a good thing. Nailing people to wood is not a good thing. Committing genocide is not a good thing. Slavery is not a good thing. Forced abortions are not good things. You can on and on. Read the Bible. If you do, you will easily come to the moral conclusion that if that pervert god existed, then you would have to oppose him/her/it.

I think you may has misinterpreted a thing or three...

thejeff wrote:

Being Logical wrote:

For me, it has never been a question of a god or no god. As one who has read the Bible and the Koran, I can state that the Christian and Islamic religions are disgusting. Raping children is not a good thing. Murdering children is not a good thing. Nailing people to wood is not a good thing. Committing genocide is not a good thing. Slavery is not a good thing. Forced abortions are not good things. You can on and on. Read the Bible. If you do, you will easily come to the moral conclusion that if that pervert god existed, then you would have to oppose him/her/it.

I think you may has misinterpreted a thing or three...

Misinterpreted? Really?

Genesis 7:21-23

21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

2 Chronicles 13:15-18

15 and the men of Judah raised the battle cry. At the sound of their battle cry, God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah. 16 The Israelites fled before Judah, and God delivered them into their hands. 17 Abijah and his troops inflicted heavy losses on them, so that there were five hundred thousand casualties among Israel’s able men. 18 The Israelites were subdued on that occasion, and the people of Judah were victorious because they relied on the Lord, the God of their ancestors.

Numbers 16:41-49

41 The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. “You have killed the Lord’s people,” they said.

42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the tent of meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord said to Moses, 45 “Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once.” And they fell facedown.

46 Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.” 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah.

Joshua 6:20-21

20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Deuteronomy 2:32-35

32 When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed[a] them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves.

Deuteronomy 3:3-7

3 So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed[a] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

Numbers 31:7,15-18

7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man....15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

1 Samuel 15:1-9

15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

2 Kings 2:23-24

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and CALLED DOWN ON A CURSE ON THEM IN THE NAME OF THE LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and MAULED 42 OF THE BOYS.

thejeff wrote:

Great post.

I used to agree with this, and I still would if all we had was pain and suffering.

But, I have seen enough answered prayer to know(?) that that simply isn't the case. And I have seen enough unanswered prayers #garthbrooks to know that sometimes, what God has in store for us is better than even what we hoped for ourselves.

So you've seen prayers answered, and you've seen prayers go unanswered.

I'll break this down into bullets:

1. What would cause God to answer some prayers over others?

2. If the unanswered prayers are part of "God's plan," does that imply the answered prayers are not part of his plan?

3. If both the answered and unanswered prayers are part of "God's plan," doesn't that imply free will doesn't exist? The person can choose to pray to God, but because the outcome is predetermined, it doesn't do a lick of good.

4. Isn't it much more likely that the answers (or non-answers) to the prayers were actually influenced by outside events (environment, treatment for illness, etc.) rather than God picking and choosing which prayers he's going to answer?

Bonus question somewhat related to the above:

5. What is the criteria for a prayer being answered? Does the person praying have to be a good Christian?

thejeff wrote:

Quest! wrote:

One question that I have for the "believers" out there:

Often I hear the argument that every action has a cause or preceding action that precipitated it. There is no such thing as an uncaused cause. But we need a "First Cause" and therefore "God". Ignoring for a moment the logic (or lack thereof) here I think that nearly everyone who makes this argument also believes in free will.

So, here is my question: What is free will if not an "uncaused cause"?

I am not sure I see the problem. God is the "uncaused cause", the "unmoved mover".

He could have made a universe full of puppets, but instead gave us free will.

Are you saying that, since God has free will, that free will had to pre-date God?

I am saying that the existence of free will is an obvious counter-example to the foundation of the argument - that everything must have a cause/there are no uncaused causes.

Thanks for the examples Stagger. The Medianite example where god is outraged that Moses did not kill the little boys or rape the little girls, is one that has always particularly bothered me. This is an example also cited by Thomas Paine who was incredibly insulted, as many of the founding fathers were, that their god would be portrayed as such a monster. As part of my morning affirmation, I call god out for his crimes. I've been doing that daily for 45 years. The little coward hasn't shown himself yet. I lead a happy and productive life.