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darkness
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/7/2005 5:27PM - in reply to Sir Lance-alot Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Sir Lance-a-lot:

I will answer this succinctly:

I said they trained as hard and were as professional as any runners competing today. I feel that is true. Look up how many European Championships, World Cups, and Olympic Games the small group of names won during their time:

Lopes: Multi-gold in WCCC, Oly Gold in Mar, Oly Silver in 10,000, Multi-medallist in Euro Champs 10k. World Number One more than once.

Vainio: Silver med in '84 10k, Euro Champ '78 10k, bronze in '83 WC 5k, 4th in '83 WC 10k

Salazar: Oly team in '80/'84, World rec in marathon, third fastest 10k runner ever with 27:25, AR holder in the 5k, 10k and marathon at same time. Bronze in World Cup 10k '81, top placer at WCCC several times. World Number One. World ranked multiple times.

I don't have enough time to list all the Euro Champs, World Champs, World Cups, and Olympic Games medals that Werner Schildhauer and Hansjorg Kunze won. I could only remember a quarter of them anyway. They won quite a few Eauro circuit races as well. Probably share 10 World Number 1-2-or-3 rankings between them in the 5k/10k, even though they were forced out of the '84 Games. I don't know if you have ever read anything about the East German sports machine, you might want to brush up on that.

Cova: European Champion in 10k '82, World Champion in 10k '83, Olympic Champion. World Number One multiple times.

Mamede: World's fastest 5k runner several different years. WR holder in the 10k. World ranked number 1 or 2 in the 5k and 10k multiple times. Closed his 27:13 WR with a 1:56 800m. Won nearly every European circuit 5k or 10k there ever was.

Since when is how someone looks when they run, or how much "speed" they have indicative of how hard they are training and how professional they are?

If you beleive that runners from the '70s ran 27:30 because they lacked the discipline that today's 12:50/26:40 runners do, what does that say about your 33:30 running ass? How much lazier are you than the world class of today and how much lazier are you than the world's best from the '70s and '80s who were able to run 27:20-27:40?

Your other contention is that I say that the WRs dropped because the Africans took drugs and the rest of the world didn't. I don't think that and I didn't write that.

Find anything resembling what you say I wrote and I will send you $10 for every time I wrote it. Every instance. No BS.

Next time put your money your money where your mouth is.

Brian McEwen
East Lansing MI
Californian
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/7/2005 5:51PM - in reply to darkness Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
"Your other contention is that I say that the WRs dropped because the Africans took drugs and the rest of the world didn't. I don't think that and I didn't write that.

Find anything resembling what you say I wrote and I will send you $10 for every time I wrote it. Every instance. No BS.

Next time put your money your money where your mouth is.

Brian McEwen
East Lansing MI"

Brian,

Your statement is factually correct but intellectually dishonest. Its true you never say that the Africans took drugs and the rest of the world didn't, but by stating that the main culprit of the tremendous improvement in race times at 5,000m and 10,000m since the early/mid 1990s is the use of drugs, you are INSINUATING that drug use is far more rampant among Africans than the rest of the world, since a disproportionate share of sub 13:00 (only three non-Africans) and sub 27:00 (zero non-Africans) times have been run by Africans. If you think it takes drugs to run that fast, than it is obvious who is taking them. And please do not construe this last statment to mean I think Africans or anyone else are dopers. I believe it is possible to run 12:37 and 26:22 without using drugs.

Mark Pilja
Santa Monica, CA
darkness
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/7/2005 5:53PM - in reply to Pravda Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Pravda:

I said CLEARLY that I wasn't referring to Craig Mottram, I was questioning how YOU could use this kind of logic:

<<< However, I been around the competitive scene of running in Australia for awhile and, as I say, I would find it very unlikely that Mottram and co are drug-takers. Craig has as great work ethics and trains bloody hard. >>>

1) You being "around the competitive scene of running in Australia for awhile" has no bearing on anything except that you have lived there for "awhile".

2) Do you NOT think that Mourhit, Saidi-Seif and Guerni (all busted and served suspensions in the last few years) weren't also training "bloody hard" and "has as great work ethics"?

I'll answer the question for you: They DID, They DO and ALL OTHERS do too.


Again, I didn't say anything about Craig Mottram, but the logic you use is faulty:

<<< Facts are you and I do not and probably will never know either way whether Craig or others in Australia are users. >>>

1) The fact is that NEITHER of us will know, but do you accept that cyclists in Australia have been caught for doping and served suspensions, including bans from the Olyumpic Games?

That is what I was talking about, and if you re-read it you see what I was getting at. You said that it was "unlikely" that "any" of the top Australian athletes were doping and I just wondered how you could that conclusion in light of what Australian cyclists have been busted for this year? You didn't offer any reasoning, just that YOU felt it was "unlikely". I realize that dope taking is widespread and systematic in cycling and that has been laid bare for all in '98 with the Festina Scandal. If you still didn't get it, you had several high-profile positives THIS YEAR with Tyler Hamilton, Santi Perez, Oscar Camenzind, Filip Meirhaughe, and Robert Millar. There were also MANY investigations into rider for buying, storing, using or trafficking in drugs: Like Museeuw in Belgium, Casagrande in Italy and Slovenian Mertin Hvastija. Add in Mark French from AUSTRALIA, who was banned for life from the Olympic Games.

The point it that CYCLISTS ARE DOPING. Americans and Europeans ... it has been going on for more than 50 years.

Find me one spot where I said Mottram is a doper and I will make you the same offer I made Sir-Mix-a-Lot:

$10 for every instance that I claim that he did this. No BS.

Brian McEwen
East Lansing MI
darkness
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/7/2005 6:14PM - in reply to alex Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

alex wrote:

27:39 in 1965 was a quantum leap forward, not a plateau. While it took others a while to catch up, they did so because they knew it was possible. For the young runner of today (say Ritz for example), you can be sure that his sights are not set on 27:22, but much faster. This is progression folks, plain and simple.



RRIIGHT! That is what I said. I said that times (WRs!!!) had plateaued for a long time by the '80s, because of that 27:39.

27:39 Clarke '65
27:38 Viren '72 (7 years)
27:30 Kimobwa '77 (5 years)
27:22 Rono '78 (1 year)
27:13.81 Mamede '84 (6 years)

19 years to move 25+ seconds.

I don't content that the WRs should then move 25 seconds in the next 19 years (which would be 26:48 by 2003). I DO contend that IT IS UNLIKELY that it would fall 51 more seconds from the rabbited on modern tracks-by the world's greatest time-trialist-Fernando Mamede-27:13 in just 10 years (1988-1998) from just the harder training and better form and better rabbits you johnny-come-latelys keep droning on about.

I am not the only one who thinks so and we have thought this for a long time:

http://www.letsrun.com/rojospeaksmay23.html

You don't need to swallow this, but don't try to convince me .
darkness
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/7/2005 7:20PM - in reply to Californian Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Mark,

I've never been intellectually dishonest in my life and I am not starting now. How can I control who is responsible for the obvious discontinuity in 3k/5k/10k performances that occured in the mid-90's?

The WR's are held by Kenyans and Ethiopians and MOST of the unprecedented number of 3k/5k/10k WRs have been set by men from those two nations the last 10-14 years. However, there have been many runners, who were not East-African, that bested the fastest the world had to offer in the era before EPO:

Antonio Prieto 13:02/27:03/2:06, Mark Carroll 7:30/13:03, Dieter Baumann 7:30/12:54/27:3X, Kennedy 7:30/12:58/27:36, Cathal Lombard 13:16/27:33, Craig Mottram 12:55, Ali Saidi-Seif 3:30/7:26/12:50, Brahim Boulami WR in Steeple, Salah Hissou 12:55/26:38, Khalid Boulami, Mohamed Mourhit 7:26/12:49/26:52, Ali Ezzine 8:03 St, Tony Martins 27:22, Khalid Skah 27:23, Lambruschini 8:08 Steeple, Croghan 8:10 Steeple ...

Those are just names and times off the top of my head without looking at any lists. I bet if you dug you could find double that number of non-East-Africans.

I didn't insinuate that, you did, and it isn't my contention that just AFRICANS use drugs and they use them to get to the WR level. Look at some of my posts and you will see it. Look at 2004 and you will see it. It is fact that an Irishman was busted for EPO this year after experiencing huge breakthroughs at 5k/10k. Mourhit and Boulami and Saidi-Seif were all busted (not all for EPO) and all this shows is that EPO (and other P-E-Drugs) ARE being used to get to the top-level. I didn't say that every runner uses and that every world record holder was a drug cheat ...I didn't say that times faster than XX:XX and XX:XX were IMPOSSIBLE without the aid of drugs (like you are implying with your statement of confidence in the WR's).

I jstu said that it is UNMISTAKABLE that the drop of the WR's coincided with EPO being commercially available and people ALSO TESTING positive for it.

You draw your own conclusions about who is, or isn't using it. I myself am glad that they are finally catching people for it in all sports.

Want me to send you $10 too?
Californian
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/7/2005 9:37PM - in reply to darkness Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
"Antonio Prieto 13:02/27:03/2:06, Mark Carroll 7:30/13:03, Dieter Baumann 7:30/12:54/27:3X, Kennedy 7:30/12:58/27:36, Cathal Lombard 13:16/27:33, Craig Mottram 12:55, Ali Saidi-Seif 3:30/7:26/12:50, Brahim Boulami WR in Steeple, Salah Hissou 12:55/26:38, Khalid Boulami, Mohamed Mourhit 7:26/12:49/26:52, Ali Ezzine 8:03 St, Tony Martins 27:22, Khalid Skah 27:23, Lambruschini 8:08 Steeple, Croghan 8:10 Steeple ..."

While some of these times are faster than previous world records, none are out of whack with what would be a reasonbale progression of performance in distance events. In 1993, before the big "EPO Boom," the world records in 3k/steeple/5k/10k were 7:29,8:02,12:58,and 27:08. Only the 8:02 time was run by an east african. Aouita had the 3k and 5k records, and barrios the 10k.

The best non-African times were 13:00 and 27:12 in the 5k and 10k (not sure what they were in the 3k or steeple). If David Moorcroft could run 13:00 in 1982, why can't Bob Kennedy run 2 secons faster 14 years later without drugs, or Craig Mottram run 5 seconds faster 22 years later without drugs? Those performances seem like reasonable progressions from previous times. Henry Marsh ran 8:08 in 1985, so why can't Croghan run within 2 seconds of that time a decade later without drugs?

Its seems like the truly astonishing performances (Komen, Geb, Bekele, Cherono, Tergat) are comming from the east Africans. You mentioned that the 5k wr dropped 21 seconds, and that the 10K record dropped 46 seconds. Throw out all of the east African performances, and take out any convicted dopers, and you are left with records of 12:54 and 26:38. Those times, especially the 12:54, don't seem that out of whack with past progressions.

To say that the spate of fast times run since the mid 90s is a result of drugs is to put the majority of the blame on east african runners.
and another thing
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/7/2005 10:38PM - in reply to Californian Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
>>If David Moorcroft could run 13:00 in 1982, why can't Bob Kennedy run 2 seconds faster 14 years later without drugs, or Craig Mottram run 5 seconds faster 22 years later without drugs?>>

More relevant than the lapse of years is available 1500m/mile speed. Moorcroft was a sub-3:50 miler; Aouita was a 3:29 1500m WR holder. And both were true 5000m runners. Kennedy and Mottram, with less speed, are able to surpass them. If a 3:37-8 1500m runner like Kennedy can go sub-13, then, sure, the 5000m WR is going to 12:40 or below. The question is, why did that happen abruptly in the mid-90's? Very few of the dozens of Africans that have surpassed Aouita on the 5000m list can match his 1:43/3:29 speed and most don't come close. The efficacy of EPO in allowing a lesser talented runner to carry his speed over a longer distance is a plausible answer for both Africans and non-Africans.

>>Throw out all of the east African performances, and take out any convicted dopers, and you are left with records of 12:54 and 26:38.>>

This is inaccurate in several respects. El G is not East African and he's faster than 12:54. Baumann ran the 12:54 and he is a convicted doper. Hissou's 26:38 is very suspicious because, again, he is not as fast as Aouita, yet surpasses him at 5000m and destroys him (26:38/27:26) at 10000m.
darkness
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/7/2005 10:44PM - in reply to Californian Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Whoa, Wwwhhooaa stop right there. Where do you get the idea that I was suggesting that all those runners that I listed were dopers?

I suggested that since so many runners have been able to eclipse the performances of the 80's(like those of the great Henry Rono and the indomitable Said Aouita by significant margins) and that this has been done with an unnatural increasing frequency that it is linked to the fact that NEW and powerful blood boosting drugs were available during that time. This assertion is supported by the fact that several runners have been suspended for EPO, not to mention that athletes in cycling, swimming and skiing have also been busted for erythropoeitin and darbepoetin alfa.

Then Pilja accused me of being disingenuous and making a thinly veiled insinuation that Africans were responsible for the rise in drug use. It was odd because he contended that there has been no rise in drug use, or he at least implied that those who have set the WR's recently are clean. I agree that there has not likely been an increase in the level or depth of drug use, it is the same as it has been for 30 years, it is just that there are better drugs now.

Anyway, I listed those runners as evidence that not all the top runners of the last 10-15 increasingly-faster years were East Africans. Most of the WR's have been set by Ethiopians and Kenyans (this we can all agree on), but there have been a bunch (and I listed some of them!) of runners who were non-East-African that have made the top-10 each year since 1990.

I, in no way, implied that these runners are on drugs. I, in no way, implied that any runner is on drugs.

The World has done that for me. A non-Kenyan wins multiple WCCC titles and starts looking like a super-Champion, runs 7:28/12:49/26:52 ... ooops, then he gets a suspension for EPO.

Brahim Boulami runs ridiculously fast steeple times, making Steeple greats and even other Africans who ran during the mid-90's like Kiptanui look slow at seven seconds back. Ooops ... busted for EPO.

IS EPO behind every WR and every WR holder of the last 15 years? No, I'm not saying that. I am NOT indicting ANYONE. But stop acting like this is just audacious and crazy to say that EPO and Aranesp are contributing to it.
human variation
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/7/2005 11:55PM - in reply to and another thing Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
1500, 3000, 5000, and 10,000m times don't always fit perfectly into performance predicting tables. I don't buy arguments that say "He wasn't a fast miler, how could he be a fast 10K guy without EPO?"
mjlaye
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 12:58AM - in reply to darkness Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I am a little confused as to what point you are extactly trying to make with all the tip toeing about. So I had a few questions.
Is it that back in the 90s the world records dropped because of EPO? If yes then, do you believe anything faster than a "normal" progression of world records since then is due to drugs? If yes, does this apply to all countries?
As far as the non-Africans. Yes I see that a few are in the top 10 world list, but how do YOU explain the sheer number in the top overall lists? If drugs, then are non-Africans not doped? or doped and not as talented?

Thats all for now. Extremely interesting debate not really sure what side I'm on for now. Looking foward to responses.

-MJ (not michael jackson, jordan, or johnson. Not even michael)
busterkeaton
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 3:26AM - in reply to and another thing Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Mottram-3:35 at the age of 21
Baumann-3:33
Hissou-3:33
Mr. Brightside
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 3:50AM - in reply to darkness Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

darkness wrote:

1) You being "around the competitive scene of running in Australia for awhile" has no bearing on anything except that you have lived there for "awhile".

2) Do you NOT think that Mourhit, Saidi-Seif and Guerni (all busted and served suspensions in the last few years) weren't also training "bloody hard" and "has as great work ethics"?




When did Guerni ever fail a test? I'm not trying to be smart here or anything, you may well be right, but I'm sure he's never failed a test has he? He's always been on the start line for the major champs and not missed a season for years that I can think of.
HRE
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 7:37AM - in reply to Sir Lance-alot Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
If you look at Ron Clarke's 27:39 10,000, run on a dirt track with no rabbits, then make the standard assumption that a modern track would be a second or two per lap faster, you get a final time that could be as fast as 26:49. If you add some rabbits you could well say that Clarke's performance, run under modern conditions, is equal to what today's runners are doing and we know that EPO or anything like it didn't exist in Clarke's time. You could do a similar sort of analysis of Jim Ryun's 3:51.1 mile and probably of his 3:33.1 1500. Or look at the times Henry Rono ran in what was a career that was really abbreviated by his own personal issues. Give him three years in peak form and I think he too would have run times that approach what we're seeing now. So I don't think that today's world record times are absolute evidence that those setting them are using anything illegal.
On the other hand, I suspect that some of the depth we're seeing is due to drugs. Look at Cathal Lombard as an example of what can happen when a decent national class runner goes to the Dark Side. He didn't set any WRs, but his performances improved by ungodly amounts. I can't believe that he is the only marginal national caliber athlete who decided to cheat his way to prominance.
As to Mottram, his career progression has been consistent. He hasn't suddenly exploded to a higher level from almost nowhere like Lombard or Regina Jacobs did. His training, from what I've read, has paid attention to his aerobic development which should provide a base for the kind of continuing improvement he's shown. I can't vouch for anyone that I don't know, but I see nothing in Mottram's case to warrant suspicion.
sylpascale
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 7:52AM - in reply to TM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I would like to add that the East Africans do not have the distractions of all the sports to choose from that we have in the US. They also do not have televisions and computers in every room of their house. There are not shopping Malls on every street corner. The main sports to choose from in these countries are running and soccer, and when all the young girls and boys are involved in these activities from a young age, there are bound to be a considerable number of talented athletes emerge. Especially when they have a passion and complete dedication to the sport.
When you factor in that most of these runners come from a background where they have to walk or run a considerable distance to and from school every day from an early age, and they are living at high altitude, then you have a strong foundation to build on once the real intense training starts.
Also, their culture has patience, it takes time to build up to where you can endure the training required to produce world class times at the distances. The Western culture has no patience, everything has to be accomplished or done "right now"
From what I have seen, these are proud people, very humble about their accomplishments, and very approachable, to call them drug cheats is absurd.
Read the book "Train Hard, Win Easy", and you will get an insight into the training that is done to produce the great performances that we have seen.
When Westerners have been able to tolerate and train for periods of time like the Africans (2-3 training sessions per day, for 150-175 miles per week), great results have been produced. For example Lasse Viren, Dave Bedford, Derek Clayton, Alberto Salazar.
How many potential great runners are there in the US right now that are participating in others sports, or not running/competing at all because they are pursuing a career after college because of financial obligations?
Just my two cents................
darkness
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 11:30AM - in reply to Mr. Brightside Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Mr. Brightside wrote:


darkness wrote:

1) You being "around the competitive scene of running in Australia for awhile" has no bearing on anything except that you have lived there for "awhile".

2) Do you NOT think that Mourhit, Saidi-Seif and Guerni (all busted and served suspensions in the last few years) weren't also training "bloody hard" and "has as great work ethics"?




When did Guerni ever fail a test? I'm not trying to be smart here or anything, you may well be right, but I'm sure he's never failed a test has he? He's always been on the start line for the major champs and not missed a season for years that I can think of.


My mistake and it was a big one. I was somehow under the impression that he had tested positive for Nandrolone around 2001 and after researching this I was CLEARLY WRONG.

First, I apologize to Mr. Said-Guerni for using him as an example of behavior that HE WAS NOT GUILTY OF. Second, I apologize for writing something that was not correct. I was "sure" of it when I wrote it, but I was clearly wrong. After researching it, my only guess is that my memory mixed up Djabir Sad-Guerni and Andrea Longo. They run the same event and in the same time-frame and about at the same level.
wait for it...
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 11:34AM - in reply to darkness Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Classy. Why can't more of us admit when we're wrong like darkness just did?
Not so fast ....
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 1:19PM - in reply to HRE Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

HRE wrote:

If you look at Ron Clarke's 27:39 10,000, run on a dirt track with no rabbits, then make the standard assumption that a modern track would be a second or two per lap faster, you get a final time that could be as fast as 26:49. If you add some rabbits you could well say that Clarke's performance, run under modern conditions, is equal to what today's runners are doing and we know that EPO or anything like it didn't exist in Clarke's time. You could do a similar sort of analysis of Jim Ryun's 3:51.1 mile and probably of his 3:33.1 1500. Or look at the times Henry Rono ran in what was a career that was really abbreviated by his own personal issues. Give him three years in peak form and I think he too would have run times that approach what we're seeing now. So I don't think that today's world record times are absolute evidence that those setting them are using anything illegal.
On the other hand, I suspect that some of the depth we're seeing is due to drugs. Look at Cathal Lombard as an example of what can happen when a decent national class runner goes to the Dark Side. He didn't set any WRs, but his performances improved by ungodly amounts. I can't believe that he is the only marginal national caliber athlete who decided to cheat his way to prominance.
As to Mottram, his career progression has been consistent. He hasn't suddenly exploded to a higher level from almost nowhere like Lombard or Regina Jacobs did. His training, from what I've read, has paid attention to his aerobic development which should provide a base for the kind of continuing improvement he's shown. I can't vouch for anyone that I don't know, but I see nothing in Mottram's case to warrant suspicion.


You make a lot of assumptions that help make YOUR case, but I don't know that most people would agree with taking these assumptions for granted.

1) Clarke ran 27:39 on dirt no rabbits. FINE. He also ran 13:16. He set 18 WR's, six of them at 5k/10k. So it is established that he was the greatest against the clock of his time. FINE.

You make the case that an all-weather track is worth 2 seconds per lap? I don't accept that, as many great runners over the next ten years ran on better tracks (Lopes, Foster, Viren, Puttemans, Gamoudi, Norpoth, Bedford, Shorter) and the best they could reach was 13:13/27:30 on these tracks. I believe that every one of these runners won an Olympic medal or set a WR except Norpoth.

So unless you consider Clarke to be a 26:50 guy on all-weather tracks and these other guys to be 40 seconds back under the same conditions, you can't make a case for modern tracks to be 2 secs per lap faster.

A rabbit isn't worth that much either. Given how many 3:51-3:55 miles were run solo on dirt tracks and grass tracks in the 60's, and then rabbited attempts on modern tracks yielded only three performances under 3:50 (1975, 1979, 1979) I don't see how you can conclude that a modern track is worth even 1 second per lap, and that rabbits pile the advantage on top of that?

I would say that rabbits are worth a significant amount when they do their job right and everyone plays along. that is why today's 1500m races are SOOOO fast. They have two rabbits (everyone knows who they will be), El G files in behind them and all others file in behind him. The first on drops at 800m then the the second goes as far as he can.

I could go on and on but it is boring so I would accept that a good rabbit is worth .4 a lap compared to a fast race with some leaders in front of you. ~.6 a lap if you run solo.

I would also accept that a dirt track is slower by about .4 a lap. These things added together make for about 1 sec per lap compared to solo efforts. So my point is that Clarke's 27:39 is worth about 27:14 under ideal conditions.

Lots of other people ran 27:15-27:30 over the next 25 years after Clarke's WR before the madness began. They all had the benefit of rabbited races and fast tracks.

So it is illogical to just say that Clarke was really a 12:50/26:50 runner who came 20 years before his time.

2) 2nd piece of nonsense:
<<< and we know that EPO or anything like it didn't exist in Clarke's time. >>>

You may not know, but blood-doping existed then, nobody was going to stand up and announce that they were doing it but it certainly was possible during that time (not to mention other drugs). I am not saying that Clarke set WR with drugs, but I AM SAYING that the top times and distances in track and field were set with the benefit of drugs, especially on the women's side. Blood-doping was not illegal then either, it was used in the 1984 Olympic Games by the US Cycling team.

3) Third nonsense:
<<< Or look at the times Henry Rono ran in what was a career that was really abbreviated by his own personal issues. Give him three years in peak form and I think he too would have run times that approach what we're seeing now. >>>

Rono ran the following:

YR Steeple 5000m 10,000m Also
77 nothing nothing 27:37.08
78 8:05.4 13:08.4 27:22.4 27:46,27:48,27:53,27:58
78 steeples- 8:12,8:14,8:15,8:16,8:16,8:17
79 8:17.92 13:19.7
80 nothing 13:19.24 27:31
81 nothing 13:06.20 27:40 (13:12.15,13:12.34,13:12.47)
82 nothing 13:08.97 27:28 (27:29, 27:59)

So that is six year's at the highest level and four WR's anda a top-3 time EVERY YEAR except 1982 when he was #4 in the 5k and #5 in the 10k.

So how is it that he could have run 60 seconds faster than he ever did at 10k and 30 seconds than he ever did at 5k?

It is interesting to not that if you subtract 60 from his WR 27:22 and 30 from his WR 13:08 set the same year, you get 26:22.4 and 12:38.4, almost exactly what Gebrselassie's WR's were.

4) More Nonesense:
<<< As to Mottram, his career progression has been consistent. He hasn't suddenly exploded to a higher level from almost nowhere like Lombard or Regina Jacobs did. His training, from what I've read, has paid attention to his aerobic development which should provide a base for the kind of continuing improvement he's shown. I can't vouch for anyone that I don't know, but I see nothing in Mottram's case to warrant suspicion. >>>

I am not commenting on Mottram because he is NOT what this debate is about, but this statement says that he has been able to progress to 12:55 because "His training ... has paid attention to his aerobic development which should provide a base for the kind of continuing improvement he's shown."

Are you sure that is what you want to go with? Are you saying that all those that have gone before today's runners who run 12:37 and 12:46-12:55 every year, DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION to their "aerobic development" enough to reach faster times?

What do you think the runners of the 70's and 80's were doing every morning? Going to Starbuck's?
HRE
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 2:07PM - in reply to Not so fast .... Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Well, that was a lot of work for nothing.
Yes, guys in the 70s and 80s paid attention to their aerobic development and made progress, as Mottram seems to do. I don't get your point and I'm pretty sure there were no Starbucks then, but I don't drink coffee.
The one to two second per lap improvement on synthetic tracks vs. cinder ones turns up in many articles and publications. It's not my invention, I'm just quoting it. In fact, I don't think you can make an across the board comparison as a cinder track can be in different condition at different times of a meet. I've read that the Bislett track was in horrible shape when Clarke ran there in 1965 as the 10,000 was one of the later events and the track had been cut up by the evening's events. In my opinion, none of the athletes you list who didn't better 13:13/27:30 were as good as Clarke, so yes, I would consider Clarke a 26:50ish guy who was before his time. By the way, Norpoth did set a world record. And anyone who knows about Henry Rono's personal life would certainly have to give some credence to the idea that he never reached his potential.
The first athlete known to have blood doped, and it was not illegalthen , was Joahu Kuha of Finland in 1968. The technique became widely known in the 70s, so I doubt that Clarke had anything going for him other than his own fitness and probably didn't even exist in 1965.
But let's assume that 27:39 was all Clarke was capable of. That was in 1965. Before Clarke, Bolotnikov's WR was 28:18ish. Thirteen years prior to Clarke's 27:39, the WR was 28:52. So in thirteen years the record improved by 73 seconds. I don't think it's far fetched to imagine that the record would improve by about the same margin in the thirty nine years after Clarke. Yes, there was some stagnation or slight improvement in the 70s and 80s. Record setting is often not done in a linear way. The mile WR was stuck for quite a while in the years of Gunder Hagg and Roger Bannister. Derek Clayton held the marathon world best for about fourteen years.
Of course drugs may have figured in some record times and fast performances of recent years. But to assume that anytime someone runs faster than, say 13:00/27:00 for 5,000/10,000 meters it has to indicate drug use is silly. What's the difference between 13:00.1 and 12:59.9? Do you really think that you know what humans ultimately can do timewise at a particular distance?
a little deeper
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 2:20PM - in reply to Not so fast .... Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
1. I disagree with your .6 sec/lap improvement. It is greater than 1 second.

2. Not only do we race on mondo tracks these days, we do intervals on them. Higher quality workouts.
joe nameth
RE: Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... 1/8/2005 5:37PM - in reply to darkness Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
[quote]darkness wrote:

Sir Lance-a-lot:

I will answer this succinctly:

I said they trained as hard and were as professional as any runners competing today. I feel that is true. Look up how many European Championships, World Cups, and Olympic Games the small group of names won during their time:




brian, good post but you fail to mention that if the runners from the 1970s had the benefit of epo, they would have run as fast as the runners today....epo gives a runner an eight second per mile boost...hence, high sham el g's 3:43 is really just a 3:51, ryun nips him.
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