how soon until the most obvious drug cheat in the world - Makhlouifi - goes down and Centro finally gets a medal?
how soon until the most obvious drug cheat in the world - Makhlouifi - goes down and Centro finally gets a medal?
weak reasoning.
First off, because the US has been catching its dopers for years. How do you think you know that Gatlin and Gay are dopers? because they were caught. By USADA, I think.
The Russians on the other hand hid and covered up and were caught doing so.
If the US were caught hiding and covering up then they would be banned too.
You aren't looking at this as a case of laws and rules - you are are basically saying, without proof, 'everyone dopes so don't scapegoat'
Right now IAAF and WADA have proof that the russian anti doping program was non compliant. So they might be banned. They have no such proof of any other nation.
laws and rules, man, not just 'feelings'
State sponsored doping, lets' think about that. What I have seen is allegations, to be believed, without actual proof. We all know the rampant reports of doping in NBA, NFL, MLB, but not serious effort to implement changes. I heard the same concerns regarding the Premier League. If we all know about that would that constitute a state sponsored doping? Out of compliance with WADA?
Fairness accross wrote:
State sponsored doping, lets' think about that. What I have seen is allegations, to be believed, without actual proof. We all know the rampant reports of doping in NBA, NFL, MLB, but not serious effort to implement changes. I heard the same concerns regarding the Premier League. If we all know about that would that constitute a state sponsored doping? Out of compliance with WADA?
I'm a little out of my league here - I'm not completley clear where responsibilities fall - USOC, USATF, WADA, USADA, IAAF...I don't understand it all.
basketball is the only olympic sport you mentioned among the ball sports so there might be some flak if there were an NBA drug scandal.
But the others aren't olympic so probably no issues with national governing body dysfunction causing international problems.
Does this mean Semenya will be given the Gold and Montano the Bronze?
Who were the 5 russian athletes? Were they the Gold and Bronze medalist from the 2012 women's 800?
Sorry but... wrote:
larkimm wrote:Putting wealth of the nation to one side, if there is one country which stands out for having athletics success throughout some of the periods in time where drug use is believed to have been prevalent, it's the USA. Perhaps that's where Dick Pound and his team need to look next...
Except that in the US, athletes are not nearly as 'centralized' as they are in some other countries. Here, everyone develops and trains on their own or as part of smaller teams scattered across the country. Sure we have cheaters but they tend to be individuals rather than part of some wider state sponsored program. Mainly because there isn't a very strong state sponsored program.
Athletes - especially the cheaters - are indeed centralized; it's just not under the government.
I'll believe that WADA and IAAF are really getting serious about drugs when they ban NIKE from the sport.
These are the most visible. Its is about leniency and double standards. Lance was never caught, you may ask yourself why. Horner winning Vuelta at the age of 40. Gatling is faster now, 33, than before the suspension for doping. Gay, sentence was shortened, because "he cooperated." All these indicate that either there is a level of complicity or looking away.
Would an IAAF suspension for Russia affect their Olympic eligibility, or just worlds? I am not sure how the IOC controls Olympic track or if the IAAF is still the organization.
Link wrote:
Sorry but... wrote:Except that in the US, athletes are not nearly as 'centralized' as they are in some other countries. Here, everyone develops and trains on their own or as part of smaller teams scattered across the country. Sure we have cheaters but they tend to be individuals rather than part of some wider state sponsored program. Mainly because there isn't a very strong state sponsored program.
Athletes - especially the cheaters - are indeed centralized; it's just not under the government.
I'll believe that WADA and IAAF are really getting serious about drugs when they ban NIKE from the sport.
Except he was talking about US, not Nike. Nike sponsors athletes around the world are not reflective of the US.
And I also hope WADA and IAAF take a very close look at what NIKE is doing with their own private labs.
Fairness accross wrote:
These are the most visible. Its is about leniency and double standards. Lance was never caught, you may ask yourself why. Horner winning Vuelta at the age of 40. Gatling is faster now, 33, than before the suspension for doping. Gay, sentence was shortened, because "he cooperated." All these indicate that either there is a level of complicity or looking away.
lance was caught several times - but the cycling weenies let him off.
(which might be what you mean by leniency. )
but just because someone is 40 and winning is just a small piece of fact - all over the sporting world there are 40 year olds competing at the highest level.
Long interview with Mutko on RT just now. Sounds quite indignant.
It is way past time for this parasite of an organization to disband.
agip wrote:
weak reasoning.
First off, because the US has been catching its dopers for years. How do you think you know that Gatlin and Gay are dopers? because they were caught. By USADA, I think.
The Russians on the other hand hid and covered up and were caught doing so.
If the US were caught hiding and covering up then they would be banned too.
You aren't looking at this as a case of laws and rules - you are are basically saying, without proof, 'everyone dopes so don't scapegoat'
Right now IAAF and WADA have proof that the russian anti doping program was non compliant. So they might be banned. They have no such proof of any other nation.
laws and rules, man, not just 'feelings'
But that's just it - the US has been caught "hiding and covering up". At least for the 1984 Games, it is well-established that the US cheated on a fairly centralized level.
And you are right - to some degree, I'm not looking at at as a case of laws and rules - because the Olympics are bigger than that. Kicking Russia out of the Olympics would be a big deal on an international relations level, especially in the face of what would appear, to many, to be large-scale hypocrisy. It could have repercussions in areas completely unrelated to track and field, or other sports. It's fine to argue that one must always follow the letter of the law, but on the other hand, if you end up taking actions that cause (directly or indirectly) human lives to be lost because you want your track stars to beat their rivals, it might seem like you're missing the larger picture.
And I can't help thinking that it doesn't just SEEM like a huge dose of hypocrisy - it IS hypocrisy. Given that we are almost certain that doping is rife everywhere, it is basically saying, look, OUR way of doping (free enterprise, market-based doping) is right. YOUR way of doping (organized, socialist-style doping) is wrong. Therefore, you don't get to play in the Olympics, whilst we reap all the benefits.
I think you're right, the IAAF is going to focus on "rehabilitation" rather than punishment. This is a cakewalk for Russia and the IAAF. They will launch an "investigation", "find" some bad apples inside RUSADA, and "take action" by throwing a few people under the bus. Back in good standing.
The Scot wrote:
Long interview with Mutko on RT just now. Sounds quite indignant.
live link
https://www.rt.com/on-air/This is not surprising at all.
Russia is blowing the coverups in the UK and elsewhere, in particular with Radcliffe, and WADA is trying to create diversations.
This is the same old false flag tactic used by centuries to try and cover a perpetrator's actions, in this case WADA and their infiltration into the IAAF.
I agree. I'm aware that, especially now, the politics are heavy. WADA is insulated from world affairs, IAAF, less so, and IOC not at all, so we'll see who chooses to do what.
I am also sympathetic to the dopers who get shat on and flamed out of the sport for getting caught doing what others do. I hate hypocrisy over the transgressions more than the transgressions themselves, in many cases. I do think there is a lot of s hitting on Russia, which they deserve, but there are soo many other federations which deserve this kind of treatment, as well.
well the covering up in the US was 30 years or more ago, right? Or are there covering up episodes since London? If it was 30 years ago...that's can't matter for anything.
and we aren't 'almost certain that doping is rife everywhere' - there is zero evidence of that. Distance running in UK, US, canada, australia, japan, scandinavia...super clean. really, doping seems to be in a handful of hotspots only. Do throwers even get caught anymore, except former soviet union athletes? I'm not sure.
Point is that you have no evidence of the 'rife everywhere' claim.
Except sprinters - globally, you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
Except the Japanese sprinters - they seem clean.
So do you feel "sympathetic" to rapists who get caught and have to serve time while other get off scot-free? Becuase that is what dopers do- they rape the ethics of sport.Maybe you feel also that the Catholic church got unfairly singled out for systematically covering up child abuse, when other groups are probably doing the same thing?
Clerk wrote:
I agree. I'm aware that, especially now, the politics are heavy. WADA is insulated from world affairs, IAAF, less so, and IOC not at all, so we'll see who chooses to do what.
I am also sympathetic to the dopers who get shat on and flamed out of the sport for getting caught doing what others do. I hate hypocrisy over the transgressions more than the transgressions themselves, in many cases. I do think there is a lot of s hitting on Russia, which they deserve, but there are soo many other federations which deserve this kind of treatment, as well.