H.S. distance running depth now vs. the '80s

I can't deny that the fastest times are faster. But, I'm not so sure about depth on the boys side.

I have been going to meets in Minnesota for the past 3 years following my daughters, so I can only speak anecdotally. But, overall I'm not impressed.

My best time in the early 80s was 15:50 for 5K although most of my races were at 3 miles. I finished 5th at conference as my team's #2 runner. We had 3 runners with PRs below 16 and 5 under 16:30 (all under 16 for 3 miles). We finished 2nd in our conference and fourth (I think) at sectionals and did not qualify to run as a team at our state meet, nor did I qualify individually.

If we had run in the south suburban conference in Minnesota this past week which was won in 16:34 and 10th at 17:13, my 1980s team, even with an uneven performance or two, would almost certainly have had 5 runners in the top 10 and possibly swept the top 3 positions. Those aren't times from an unusually difficult course. On a pancake flat and fast invitational the same boys ran nearly identical times.

Now, when we get to the Minnesota state meet there will no doubt be some wonderful runners in the top 20, But, I have my questions about the depth.

way more participants / demographics

way more invitational/ time trial type races

= less to zero leading required

volume miles replaced w fewer higher quality miles

...80-100km/week rather than 80-100mi/week

3200m is ~4sec faster than 2mi

more

I graduated H.S. in '84 in N.J., and back then it was a rare sight to see a sub 9:00 3200. Now you've got like 18 guys breaking 9:00 at a single regional event. And the x.c. records from my year at Holmdel (NJ H.S. championships) have been absolutely torched in recent years.

Way more participants? I don't get the sense that H.S. competitive running is more popular in the U.S. than in the '80s. I mean, back then you had many world class U.S. runners to emulate, which is now barely the case.

I also doubt that racing more makes that much of a difference. You basically are what you are, whether you race in 8 meets or 12 meets.

We also ran the 3200 in the early '80s in NJ. Not sure about the rest of the nation.

That leaves the training. The general consensus on these boards is that it was actually the fewer but higher quality miles that led to the generally poor performances seen in the 90s. Your suggesting that HS kids are going back to that now, and it is actually improving their performances this time around?

There are definitely more participants. People are getting fed up with the increasing polital aspects of soccer, baseball, basketball, lacrosse, football, etc. And are now running since running has an almost nonexistent political aspect.

I know in my state the coaches who have successful teams are doing a lot more tempo / threshold training now. I don't think this is the only factor but it helps.

Re: MN Depth

A team (Edina) that wasn't even able to qualify for the MN State Meet finished 3rd at last year's Nike HS Nationals. There's plenty of depth in the MN distance ranks. Overall, the guys are faster and the talent goes deeper in MN than in the 80's, although MN was stacked in the 80s and 90s (and 60s and 70s and 2000s as well).

and what about the Lake Conference...? Wayzata, Edina, Hopkins. Insane depth. Your 15:50 would have been fourth on Wayzata's 2014 team. A 16:30 barely puts you mid-pack in the varsity race.

I also graduated from H.S. In New Jersey in 1984, from a very good program. My fastest race that season was 16:21, and I had no prayer of making it onto the varsity squad. Had to run on the JV team.

ItsTrue wrote:

There are definitely more participants. People are getting fed up with the increasing polital aspects of soccer, baseball, basketball, lacrosse, football, etc. And are now running since running has an almost nonexistent political aspect.

Could be there are more kids running just because there are more kids. Population growth.

Soccer and the explosion of other sports and activities (skating boarding, etc) cut into the 90s talent pool. Neither are quite as popular now as the newness as worn off.

Alan

6AA has crazy depth, yes, but there is not so much depth in the rest of the state.

Goucher Needles wrote:

Re: MN Depth

A team (Edina) that wasn't even able to qualify for the MN State Meet finished 3rd at last year's Nike HS Nationals. There's plenty of depth in the MN distance ranks. Overall, the guys are faster and the talent goes deeper in MN than in the 80's, although MN was stacked in the 80s and 90s (and 60s and 70s and 2000s as well).

Stats for you, pulled from milesplit. Note especially the girls 1600:

Year 2000: boys under 9:00 for 3200/2 mile (c): 8. Year 2015: 51

Year 2000: girls under 10:30 for 3200/2 mile: 4. Year 2015: 49

Year 2000: boys under 4:10 for 1600/1 mile (c): 14. Year 2015: 50

Year 2000: girls under 5:00 for 1600/mile (c): 14. Year 2015: 275!!!!

Year 2000: boys under 1:52 for 800: 8. Year 2015: 60

Year 2000: girls under 2:10 for 800: 7. Year 2015: 50

Having coached during both eras, I think the difference is in the popular training methods used. Low mileage, high intensity back in the 90's and into the early 2000's. More coaches are stamina and mileage focused now, I think. I know my high schoolers are running more now than I had them doing 20 years ago. And more successfully, especially from the 1600 up.

Population in the US has grown from 220 million in 1980 to 308 million in 2010.

The number of sub 9 min 3200 runners initially peaked at about 15 to 17 in the late 1970s, and by the early 80s it was declining. In the 90s practically no one broke 9 minutes. Just a handful or two for the entire decade.

In 2015 a whopping 50 runners went sub 9 (see athletic.net)

The popularity of cross country/track has grown. I don't have those stats, but it has easily doubled in 30 or 35 years. Training is certainly better, at least with many programs. They are letting the kids run.

Better track times for many reasons:

Better track surfaces. We didnt have mondo back then. Less than half our races on a all weather surface

Few if any twilight meets. Most track races run during hot and windy part of the day.

There are more good coaches now who have a passion and interest in the sport. Its not the baseball coach who has xc in the fall.

Bigger schools are stronger these days but smaller schools struggle.

More runners participating in the sport which allows for more runners to excel.

I think more year round runners - specialization. In the past kids played multiple sports like basketball or hockey or soccer or baseball.

I think top guys from 80's still would stand up to current group if the environment in the sport was what it is today.

In the 70s/80s there were several guys near where I grew up that ran near 9:00 for 2 miles. In the 10s, in the same area, 2 guys have broken 9:00 for 3200.

There is more population now but really it is also that there are more schools with programs and actual coaches as opposed to ex-football players drafted to coach. All those 70s/80 guys are now coaching the 10s guys and they know what to do.

I can't imagine having depth like that. The fastest kid on my HS XC team barely breaks 20.

me thinks wrote

I think more year round runners - specialization. In the past kids played multiple sports like basketball or hockey or soccer or baseball.

I was a 3 sport player adding hockey and baseball.

Once my sophomore year I had a hockey game in the morning on Saturday, ran a 2 mile at the Palatine Invite around noon and played a 2nd hockey game in the afternoon. Although I remember playing outstanding in the hockey games, I was thoroughly putrid in the 2 mile. Track coach was not happy and wanted me to focus on track. Problem was the varsity hockey coach was my dad.

To the person writing of the Wayzata led conference; I totally agree with your point, that conference is absolutely outstanding and fun to watch. Edina brings 300 kids from middle school through HS to a meet and it's a spectacle to see them warmup. Talk about a long green line. Outside of that conference however, can you agree there isn't a lot of depth? Or, perhaps the conference I see most of the time is just a laggard?

Not that it matters, but should have said Proviso East invite. You don't want to get your facts wrong on let's run.

I think it is crazy that it hasn't been brought up yet. But I think the internet is huge in improving HS times overall.

In the 80's if you won all your 2 miles races in 9:30. You thought you were the best ever, now if you win in that time, you look online and see 50 kids breaking 9, and you train harder.