Negative Split a Marathon?

I'm of the mind that unless you're elite you're probably better off going out slightly faster and then hanging on like hell. Even if you jog the first 15, the last miles are gonna tear up your legs and slow you down -- might as well build up a nice cushion first so you can trudge home under 3:00!!!

Save neg splitting for the elites

go positive splits wrote:

I'm of the mind that unless you're elite you're probably better off going out slightly faster and then hanging on like hell. Even if you jog the first 15, the last miles are gonna tear up your legs and slow you down -- might as well build up a nice cushion first so you can trudge home under 3:00!!!

Save neg splitting for the elites

Most elites don't neg split. If you have a dozen East Africans in the lead pack in the opening 5-10 miles of a marathon, how many neg split? Maybe only 1 or 2. Maybe. Only the ones that have the fitness to hang on to the finish line. The rest that get dropped either DNF or run ugly pos splits, no where near their PR potential. That's what happens when you disregard even-pacing based on your fitness level. You lose far more time at the end than you gain at the beginning.

I'm right in that 3:00 non-elite range and I would say the opposite - my best marathons have been even or negative split. When you are dying at the end because you went out too fast, you can give up huge chunks of time - 20 to 30 seconds per mile for the last few miles - thereby totally ruining your clock time and your enjoyment of the race. If you give up a minute or two by going out slower than goal MP for the first half, you are more likely to finish strong and make up that time in the second half.

Henry Porter II wrote:

I'm right in that 3:00 non-elite range and I would say the opposite - my best marathons have been even or negative split. When you are dying at the end because you went out too fast, you can give up huge chunks of time - 20 to 30 seconds per mile for the last few miles - thereby totally ruining your clock time and your enjoyment of the race. If you give up a minute or two by going out slower than goal MP for the first half, you are more likely to finish strong and make up that time in the second half.

Agreed. I am a sub 3 guy and always try to negative split. My PR and my best race experiences are results of negative splits.

People positive split because they went out too fast. That is ok if you are using some racing tactic but not good if you are going for time.

go positive splits wrote:

I'm of the mind that unless you're elite you're probably better off going out slightly faster and then hanging on like hell. Even if you jog the first 15, the last miles are gonna tear up your legs and slow you down -- might as well build up a nice cushion first so you can trudge home under 3:00!!!

Save neg splitting for the elites

you really shouldn't be giving advice. if you train right the last miles can be as hard as a short race. nothing extraordinary about it.

OP: a hard earned negative split shows that you ran the best you could. actually, an even split or even a small positive split does the same. a huge negative split, on the other hand, is not good. you left too much out there.

go positive splits wrote:

I'm of the mind that unless you're elite you're probably better off going out slightly faster and then hanging on like hell. Even if you jog the first 15, the last miles are gonna tear up your legs and slow you down -- might as well build up a nice cushion first so you can trudge home under 3:00!!!

Save neg splitting for the elites

LOL niiice. Too bad sarcasm doesn't translate on the internet very well.

I failed to break 3:00 until I learned to negative split and later PR'd with a negative split in Chicago. Never could do it in Boston but that is an uneven course. Be patient and go out in 1:30, see what happens.

I'm also running Chicago this Sunday and am stressing over my pace strategy as well, but aiming for 3:10-3:15. This will be 6th marathon and all of the ones I've run before have never been negative splits. I always crash over the last 4-6 miles. I'd like to avoid that from happening, but at the same time I keep thinking "what if I go out too slow?" I guess I'm trying to figure out just how slow is too slow to start. Should I start at 3:15 pace or something slower? And when do I pick it up? For reference, I ran my PR at Boston this year of 3:22:02, but was on sub 3:20 pace through mile 23 or so. I have not raced much during this training cycle, but did PR in the half (1:31:54) and ran 19:24 for 5K. When I throw those in carious race calculators, I get everything from 3:04 to 3:20+. On the bright side, I have a good shot at a PR, but I want the best possible PR. I like having a range of "predicted" times so I have back up goals to fall back on if things turn bad during the run, but I need help with the starting pace.

your half marathon suggests right about 3:14 so i'd go for sub 3:15 as the main goal. don't go out faster than 1:36mid

I'm also curious to hear some LRC opinions. Relevant information:

Never run a marathon before.

Been running for ~2.5 years. 30 years old.

Half Marathon PR of 1:28 flat.

5K PR of 18:58.

My race is the NYC Marathon on Nov. 1st.

Used the Pfitz 18/55 plan. It's gone pretty well. Missed a full week in the middle of the cycle b/c of obligations I couldn't avoid. Other than that, I've followed the plan exactly.

Hit my MP runs in the 7:00-7:15 min/mile range. Felt hard, but not crippling.

I have no idea what my pace strategy should be. I don't even know what my goal should be. I'd like to BQ, but I've never run 26 miles before, so I almost feel like I should aim for 3:10-3:15 and just get a marathon under my belt, then try to BQ in the race this spring.

1. What should my goal time be?

2. What pacing strategy should I use to get there?

definitely try to negative split! for a few reasons.

1) the marathon is a long goddamn race! no need to "get out" because you have plenty of time to make up any time that's "lost." i like to think that for every second/minute you go out too hard, you pay for it at least double on the back end.

2) you're gonna hurt at the end regardless, but as the poster above said, if you go out too hard, you'll be losing (at least) 20-30 seconds per mile on the back end. hurting and dying feel a whole lot different in a marathon.

3) you'll pass all the people that went out too hard and will feel stronger because of it.

patience is the key. i've negative splitted in all of my best marathons. negative splitted chicago back in the day (1:11/1:08) and for the first half--at least--i kept having to tell myself to just settle in and keep the rhythm i was in, regardless of how fresh i felt at that point. i made a move at about 17 or 18 with two dudes from hanson's and felt like a champ. crossed the line in pain, but pumped and with a smile on my face.

i'm running NYC next month (first marathon in two years) and hoping i can take my own advice and go 1:21/1:18. :D

tl;dr: stay under control--first half should feel easy--and then bring it home as you pass all the folks who went out too fast.

best of luck to those running chicago this weekend! if you haven't done it, it's an amazing race. try not to get too pumped from the crowd downtown.

Neg split for sure. at the half slow down, take a drink, reset your brain then pick it up a bit and enjoy passing lots of peeps in the second half.

NYCM Runner wrote:

1. What should my goal time be?

2. What pacing strategy should I use to get there?

Aim for a 3:11, with a 1:35 for the first half. But don't fool yourself: a 3:11 can be hard to get in warm weather.

My goal for a first-time 'thon is 3:25 or better, so should I go out in 1:45 to be safe, then come home in 1:38? Or is that too ambitious?

Or should I go out 1:42 easy and run even (1:42 on the back end)?

jecht wrote:

My goal for a first-time 'thon is 3:25 or better, so should I go out in 1:45 to be safe, then come home in 1:38? Or is that too ambitious?

Or should I go out 1:42 easy and run even (1:42 on the back end)?

Even splits work best for the thon.