How Far into a Race are you in Oxygen Debt?

AnswerisSimple wrote:

At what point in a race do you find yourself huffing and puffing? This is assuming you're racing hard, trying to do your very best on that day.

5k? 10K? Half marathon? Marathon?

What is oxygen debt, I've heard the term be flicked around before, but never understood the science behind it.

AnswerisSimple wrote:

At what point in a race do you find yourself huffing and puffing? This is assuming you're racing hard, trying to do your very best on that day.

5k? 10K? Half marathon? Marathon?

Are you wanting an actual physiological answer? If so, "at the onset of exercise" (is your answer) you are in an oxygen deficit state simply because it takes respiration time to increase to the point to match ATP demand via oxidative metabolism...assuming you are at an intensity you can in fact achieve steady state. Since the ATP-PCR then glycolysis metabolic pathways are quick, they supply the ATP for the first 15 seconds ish and 2 minutes ish respectively. But the actualy concept of oxygen debt/deficit refers to the oxidative systems supplying the majority of ATP.

But if you are wanting a personal answer then most should say around 800 - 1200m in as that's when the OM "takes over" and IF we went out too fast for maximal steady state then that's typically when it "feels" like you're huffin n puffin.

Dr. G

There is no such thing as oxygen debt. What makes you start breathing hard is not lack of oxygen, but a buildup of acids. Because this includes carbonic acid, expelling more carbon dioxide is effective as a last-ditch attempt to clear the acids when all else fails.

But carbon dioxide also dilates blood vessels in the muscle, and its absence causes them to constrict, starving the muscle of oxygen. That's why when you start breathing heavily, you "paradoxically" slow down anyway despite seeming to take in more oxygen, which you don't really.

Breathing hard works for about as long as the kick of a middle distance race, after that you must slow down. So it's useless for distance pacing.

The Oxygen debt concept is rather complicated as previous posts attest.

It's not applicable during half marathons and marathons, because these races are run without excess carbon dioxide breathing which is the cause of heavy breathing during shorter, faster races or training runs.

The fastest runners also avoid huffing and puffing in shorter reaces too because they have trained themselves to run more efficiently with less acidosis (build up of hydrogen ions in muscle caused by anearobic respiration). They are breathing hard at the end of any distance on the track, and slightly more for a few seconds after the race, but not as much as slower runners.

In one of the old lactic acid oxygen debt models of acidosis buffering and carbon dioxide production, (a hypothesis based on laboritory measurements)* It was stated that the human body can accumulate an oxygen debt of 16 liters of carbon dioxide, before exhaustion was reached. Many coaches such as Lydiard built some of their training methodology on this hypothesis, which was allied to the lactate tolerance concept. Many still do, but more recent analysis has show that it is not a good way to improve speed endurance.

The recent dominance of East African runners is largely attrubutable to this difference in training methodology. So if we trake Lydiards 'train don't strain' advice and apply it to speed endurance also...................

It's common sense really, but so many people are afraid to change their old habits or even consider it. According to one well known self-proclaimed Lydiardist (should I name and shame him?) I am a sick and delusional man for even darring to suggest that there is more to be learned and applied to running.

Maybe he and others should listen to the greatest East African coach of them all; Brother Colm O'Connell. Or maybe they think they know it all already?

*https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IrCTghhgKh0C&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=accumulate+an+oxygen+debt+of+16+liters&source=bl&ots=UgsxGfsP_y&sig=ckcEdhdDFJjHWYyvhETJsKK3WiI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAWoVChMInLDwgtiZyAIVQX8aCh1UvQAT#v=onepage&q=accumulate%20an%20oxygen%20debt%20of%2016%20liters&f=false

I'll rephrase then - how far into a race do you find yourself out of breath?

Man, that's an old term .. haven't heard that since the 80's

This is fascinating. I've noticed that my fastest times tend to come on days when I'm not breathing heavy in the early and middle stages of races.

How can one train to be more efficient in this approach?

AnswerisSimple wrote:

I'll rephrase then - how far into a race do you find yourself out of breath?

We know what you mean. The answer/answers are still the same.

You get out of breath early = bad

All good training and racing methods should help you prevent this.

In reply to the poster asking how to race without breathing too hard (ad covers page so I can't reply directly), the answer is to avoid getting out of breath in training. The way to do this is to make sure that you have done enough of a warm up to get the adrenaline flowing just right. When this happens, you get more muscle efficiency due to a more springy stride, so you get more elastic return for your effort.

What you don't do is to force the pace in training, this just has the opposite effect. Instead of forcing the pace, you let the pace come to you. Some days it will happen just right, other days it won't and there is no point trying to make it happen. This is an idividual approach to training which doesn't work in group training where you are expected to give your all every time.

Jon Orange wrote:

All good training and racing methods should help you prevent this.

There is no such thing as performance-enhancing training. Performance is independent of physiology. I learned that in another thread.

In a half I am breathing through my ears and eyes after about 2km and I keep doing that until the end. If you're not doing that you're just not going all out.

If you get a day where everything feels effortless at your typical breathing through every orifice pace, run faster.

Perhaps you feel agrieved that I have slighted your long held belief in performance enhancing drugs?

If you really want to show me how smart you are, post something worthwhile.

all out racer wrote:

In a half I am breathing through my ears and eyes after about 2km and I keep doing that until the end. If you're not doing that you're just not going all out.

Wrong on so many levels.

Jon Orange wrote:

If you really want to show me how smart you are

Why on Earth would that be a goal of mine?

somebloke wrote:

all out racer wrote:

In a half I am breathing through my ears and eyes after about 2km and I keep doing that until the end. If you're not doing that you're just not going all out.

Wrong on so many levels.

Only if you like to take it easy, which you apparently do.

somebloke wrote:

all out racer wrote:

In a half I am breathing through my ears and eyes after about 2km and I keep doing that until the end. If you're not doing that you're just not going all out.

Wrong on so many levels.

Agreed. If you're dying 2k into a half then it's safe to say you will be passed by many people that went out at a reasonable/intelligent pace. Fortunately for you, almost no one knows how to go out at a reasonable pace.

all out hobby jogger wrote:

somebloke wrote:

Wrong on so many levels.

Agreed. If you're dying 2k into a half then it's safe to say you will be passed by many people that went out at a reasonable/intelligent pace. Fortunately for you, almost no one knows how to go out at a reasonable pace.

Who said anything about dying? Breathing really hard is the pinnacle of life.

I don't know if the answer is simple, but the question is too broad. The answer can vary for many reasons, including which race, and current state of fitness:- If the race is longer, you go slower, therefore, you can go farther, before you find yourself "out of breath". It would never happen in an ultra -- it would be farther than you are able to run in one bout.- If you are more fit, you can go farther, before you find yourself "out of breath".Today it was about 1km, jogging uphill.

AnswerisSimple wrote:

I'll rephrase then - how far into a race do you find yourself out of breath?

Jon Orange wrote:

In one of the old lactic acid oxygen debt models of acidosis buffering and carbon dioxide production, (a hypothesis based on laboritory measurements)* It was stated that the human body can accumulate an oxygen debt of 16 liters of carbon dioxide, before exhaustion was reached.

Glycolysis produces no CO2, so if a CO2 is produced, an O2 was used to make it. I don't see where they think a deficit of O2 occurs, unless they're referring to the similar amount of O2 needed in the future to swap out the existing CO2.