3 Weeks Out From Marathon

the 10 mile race is your tune up. half makes no sense. even the half at MP is too much. 20 w/10 @ MP is a good predictor workout if it doesn't drain you completely.

Thanks for the advice!

I think you may be right. Just getting antsy to race and get a half in eventually but I gotta remember the marathon is the true goal.

a;;kaf; wrote:

Hi,

I am running my sixth marathon in a little less than 6 weeks.

I have averaged 65 to 70 a week with a bunch of MP work and LT intervals. I've run 17, 18, 18, 17 so far. I won't go too much into detail right now but two of them have been MP for the second half of this long run.

I am shooting for 2:55 to 2:59.

I'm doing a ten mile race four weeks out.

The question is what should I do three weeks out. I have three options.

Race a half (probably the least smart choice, but I have a soft half PR of 1:25), Do a 2 mile warmup, do the half at MP, and a 2 mile cooldown, OR scrap the half and do 20 miles with 10 at MP.

Thanks!

Get your heavy mileage in now. It can take four weeks before your body makes full aerobic adaptations from high mileage.

The 10 miler sounds like a smart idea. After that, maybe throw one hill workout in the next week, but just focus on getting race ready. Less is usually more in the final weeks.

somebloke wrote:

the 10 mile race is your tune up. half makes no sense. even the half at MP is too much. 20 w/10 @ MP is a good predictor workout if it doesn't drain you completely.

I agree on skipping the half. I would do the 20 but a little more conservative workout... based on your goal mp I'd say maybe something like first 10 miles~7:45 pace, next 5~7:15, last 5~6:45.

LSD.

Thank you very much for this idea!

I think I'll use this exactly actually.

I'll save the real workout for the Wednesday before this long run workout by doing something like 2 x 5 miles at MP minus ten seconds.

ad;k;da; wrote:

Thank you very much for this idea!

I think I'll use this exactly actually.

I'll save the real workout for the Wednesday before this long run workout by doing something like 2 x 5 miles at MP minus ten seconds.

That 2x5 is a great workout. My only concern would be making sure that you are feeling totally recovered after the 10 mile race. If the 10 mile is on a Saturday, then this Wednesday workout would be perfect. Otherwise maybe push back to Thursday based on feel. Even if the race is on a Sunday I agree it's definitely doable to bounce back for Wednesday, but just my own approach is I like to be cautious and take 3 easy days after a 15k-half marathon race.

I would definitely hammer this week and next; big workout today or tmrw, big long run workout this weekend, medium midweek workout next week, then 2-3 days easy before the 10 miler. Good luck!

Are you really able to run marathon pace that often for that long? Wow. I always struggle to run marathon pace in my training. I base it on effort and expect slower times in training. It's not until race day that I can dream of going my actual pace.

I'm actually concerned you're doing it wrong despite your ability to run marathon pace so often. Are you truly keeping it aerobic? Are you safely staying away from a threshold effort when you do these runs? Doing 2x5 miles approaching threshold and getting to quit for the day is nothing like the comfort you need to stay aerobically steady for 26.2 miles on race day. Can you promise me that what you're doing is not actually closer to tempo effort?

You actually sound like you're going to crush this marathon regardless. If you get good weather and a good course, then you have it in the bag. Bad course or bad day are the only factors that could stop you now. I'd like your volume to be higher to guarantee it, but your workouts are great.

I generally think of three weeks out as being the last time you can do a long run. Your 10 miler is four weeks out and is a great tune up, so our only concern is that you find a way to get in good volume while still recovering from your tune up.

What you don't want to have happen is do a 10 miler four weeks out and the find yourself blazing a fast 10 miles at the end of a 20 mile run a week later when you're three weeks out. That's too much hard running. I say do recovery running a few days after the 10 miler, some low repetition intervals or just strides midweek, and then something like an easier 18 miler with the last 6 miles being progressive that weekend. Don't underestimate the fatigue of the 10 miler; do trust your last few months of training.

With your volume of training I recommend not doing a serious taper during your last two weeks, but do take the 3 days prior to the marathon super easy. I'm talking like 20-30 minutes easy, strides, and stretch.

this is good advice from Shoebacca. Im not a Hansons expert, but my understanding is that 2x5 (and the 2x6) at mp-10s are kind of "peak" Hansons workouts. It does sound like a lot of intensity in 7 or 8 days between the 10 mile race, the 2x5 workout and the progressive long run. He's right that the first priority is recovering from the 10 mile race

On another note- I think that 2x5 workout is designed to be a little faster than mp to make mp feel easier. (I see it as roughly half way between mp and hmp). So i wouldn't worry about it feeling really easy and totally aerobic.

I know everyone is different, but I disagree on the approach of waiting until the race to run extended periods at marathon pace. In the last 8-10 weeks I'm a fan of doing a lot of running near marathon pace (just ran a 4x3mile @mp pace today). But yes, definitely those are big workouts that you've been doing. 18 with last 9 at mp is strong. It sounds like you are making great use of the mileage that you are doing. Maybe this weekend you could also go for 20+ just to get a longer effort in there....doesn't have to be blazing or progressive.

You have a lot of experience at the distance, so you obviously know what you're doing.

Same poster but I am literally just mashing the keys for a name.

I'll try and respond to each post bc honestly if I don't have the quotes above me, I'll forget the really good and plentiful content.

The race is on next Sunday.

My quality training days for this week is:

Tuesday was 2.5 warmup/ 8 mile tempo = 4 miles at marathon pace and 4 miles at about half marathon pace (6:29) / 2.5 mile cool down. I like this one a lot and do it often. It's patience in the first half and turning it up in the second to simulate the two halfs of a marathon.

Thursday I'm thinking 2 x 4 miles at MP minus 10s

Friday (going away for the long weekend but will miss the proper long run, but hey I am doing a 12 hour hike one day!) very abridged easy 14 to 15

sunday 10 mile race so I'm pushing the week's workout as early as possible to tuesday probably 2 x 3 miles at MP minus ten secs (one less mile to be a tad fresher)

wens to fri just normal steady 7 - 10 miles not pushing so say 730 to 8.

Thanks!

Thanks again for the info!

I agree with you on the MP runs. I have no problem running them at goal MP in intervals of straight runs up to ten miles.

In the second half of a long run, like you, I treat them getting within say 30 secs as the MP feel needed. Sometimes in miles 10 - 20 I can hit 6:50, but often it's 7 to 710, which by yourself at the end of the week after already doing say 2 x 3 miles below goal pace, i'm okay with!

I'm all for rest before a marathon. A lot of people think it's crazy, but I'll take the two or three days OFF before a marathon. More because it's the mental fatigue that wears me down a bunch.

I sure am hoping for a good day! I am running a very fast course (apparently) in albany, ny in october. I've run within a few seconds of sub 3, so here's the old chance! Pacing is not usually a problem as I've positive split that PR race by 45 secs. I've just really tried to work on getting volume up. While it's not super high at 60 - 70, I usually never went above 50 - 60 before. Fingers crossed!

Thanks, OP, Shoebacca, et. al. This is very encouraging, as I am in a similar situation, though my marathon is in mid November, and it is my first full marathon. I have a similar goal to the OP's--2:59-3:04 would be my target zone. I have done similar workouts, and recently ran a rather hilly 17-miler at 7:10 pace, overall, with the last five at 7:00, 7:01, 6:59, 6:59, and 6:54. The last mile was the fastest. My coach will now have me do LT segments in 17- and 19-mile sessions. Yesterday, I ran a 7x1 mile (about 12 miles in total), and averaged just under LT pace (6:29...with LT pace being 6:32, according to my coach) for the mile repeats...and felt good throughout.

OP: I wish you well in your marathon. I look forward to seeing more comments here--great stuff, folks!

I wish you the best of luck too!

The 17 with progression down at the end when it really matters shows strength. I at least believe that strength and pacing are more important than speed in the marathon. That's why I tailor my training as I do. I wish I was more formal in my training, but I just read a bunch and always START with a plan, but get an idea for tweaking as I go along. The general structure stays the same though (number of miles I'd like to hit for the most part, types of workouts I like, etc.). I just found having the hard and fast schedule staring me in the face was just too rigid.

What I'm thinking for the next few weeks is:

4 out - (50ish miles)

(wens) 5 - 6 x 1K at 10k pace

(sun) ten miler (I have 64:05 PR, anything under 64 is awesome -- go out in 32 flat or a little faster because my PR splits were 32 and 32:05, I'd like to run even in the marathon as my PR was coming off a positive 45 secs split)

3 out (60 to 70ish)

(wens) 3 x 3 miles at MP minus 10 secs

(sun) 20 with 10 easy (7:45 to 8:00) 10 uptempo (7:00 to 7:15)

2 out (60 - 70ish)

(wens) 2 x 5 mile at MP- 10s

(sun)16 total with 10 miles fartlek 3 mins hard 2 mins easy

1 out (40ish miles)

(10 days out) 10 miles with fartlek 3 mins hard 2 mins easy

I like updating this. Heck maybe it'll help one or two folks too.

It's also partly the usual "oh my god the race is getting closer let's overanalyze everything" tendency we all get!

Some family stuff came up and I didn't run the the ten miler four weeks out. I did get in the 1Ks as said above at 5K pace. I also did a ten mile run (with 2.5 mile warmup and cooldowns) at 6:50 pace (hit 6:40s for the last 4 miles). I did an easy 18 miles the next day.

I took this past week easy to prepare for a half marathon (3 weeks out). I ran 45 or 46 second PR for 1:24:50.

Going to raise my mileage back up to the usual 60 to 70 this week before a two week taper starting Monday.

The question is what to do for quality days this week. Is two weeks out too close to run say 14 to 16 miles with the second half around 7:15 (MP plus about 25 secs) on sunday?

I was going to run some type of workout friday like 2 x 3 miles at half pace OR a hill workout saturday to be conservative and fully recover from the race.

Thanks!

You are in a dangerous situation right now. You've done some great training and are set for crushing the marathon in 2wks. But! be careful now.Since you decided to do the half last weekend (congrats, solid performance) 3wks out, you need to take it easy with the quality before taper. Bringing the milage back up to 60-70 this week is good, but the 14-16 with last half at MP+25s can bring you over the top. Don't do too much this week. Keep it at normal distance pace and to short pick ups or something.Next week, start taper, do some shorter MP runs, strides, cut down to 30miles and you are set. Believe in the fact that you did the work, leave it for race day.Good luck!

first time bostoner wrote:

You are in a dangerous situation right now. You've done some great training and are set for crushing the marathon in 2wks. But! be careful now.

Since you decided to do the half last weekend (congrats, solid performance) 3wks out, you need to take it easy with the quality before taper. Bringing the milage back up to 60-70 this week is good, but the 14-16 with last half at MP+25s can bring you over the top. Don't do too much this week. Keep it at normal distance pace and to short pick ups or something.

Next week, start taper, do some shorter MP runs, strides, cut down to 30miles and you are set. Believe in the fact that you did the work, leave it for race day.

Good luck!

[/quote]

I agree with this. Don't get too crazy with the intensity right now. Here's what I always do and I'm just a little faster (2:48-2;55 range). This week I would do the 2*5 mile workout. I would do 18-20 easy on the weekend. No MP. Next week (around 10 days out) just do 6*1 mile starting at MP and cut down to HMP. Then do 10-12 easy the weekend before. That's it. Round out the week with whatever else you usually do.

That half is a good indicator for sub 3. I feel well trained runners can go by the rule of thumb of double it + 8 minutes. Pacing wise, I'd run the first half at 2:58 pace and that could leave you some room to negative split.

marathon advice giver wrote:

first time bostoner wrote:

You are in a dangerous situation right now. You've done some great training and are set for crushing the marathon in 2wks. But! be careful now.

Since you decided to do the half last weekend (congrats, solid performance) 3wks out, you need to take it easy with the quality before taper. Bringing the milage back up to 60-70 this week is good, but the 14-16 with last half at MP+25s can bring you over the top. Don't do too much this week. Keep it at normal distance pace and to short pick ups or something.

Next week, start taper, do some shorter MP runs, strides, cut down to 30miles and you are set. Believe in the fact that you did the work, leave it for race day.

Good luck!

I agree with this. Don't get too crazy with the intensity right now. Here's what I always do and I'm just a little faster (2:48-2;55 range). This week I would do the 2*5 mile workout. I would do 18-20 easy on the weekend. No MP. Next week (around 10 days out) just do 6*1 mile starting at MP and cut down to HMP. Then do 10-12 easy the weekend before. That's it. Round out the week with whatever else you usually do.

That half is a good indicator for sub 3. I feel well trained runners can go by the rule of thumb of double it + 8 minutes. Pacing wise, I'd run the first half at 2:58 pace and that could leave you some room to negative split.[/quote]

Do this ^^ Good stuff. I'm at 2:48-2:50 range. For a long time I was stuck at 2:55-ish. The reason for that was that I was too eager. I was doing solid work and was in the shape of my life 3-6wks out, and I did just that -hammered hard workouts thinking it would take me sub 2:50. Never did... until I finally got it right. Don't bring your self over the edge, believe in the training and hold your horses.

Hi guys,

Thank you so much for the advice!

I think firstly, I will go out in 1:29 which should feel pretty easy. I thought about 1:28 but why chance it? I think I went out in 1:28:30ish when I ran 3:00:08 but I think I'm in better shape (45 secs faster in the half).

I ran 2 x 3 miles yesterday with a half mile recovery between. The goal was the run them at half marathon pace. I did that with a 6:29 average on the first one. One the second one I went a little too fast (but I was still under control) with a 6:17 average. I put in your typical 2 mile warmup and 2 mile cooldown. I thought about doing the 2 x 5 miles at MP, but thought to be a little more conservative volume wise at least 3 days after the half.

So that leaves the question... 2 x 5 miles at MP Friday or an easy 18 Sunday? Or both? Sounds like both isn't really the answer in the spirit of holding back. Leaning towards the easy long run and then some easy MP intervals ten days out for reinforcement.

Thanks again!

Thanks again!

Easy 18. No MP this week. Follow the scheme outlined above and you are set. I think you should aim for 1:28:30 for the first half. You're in better shape and that pace should be right where you're at. I did 2:58:57 on a half of 1:24:36 5wks out.