First marathon blow up

No advice but if a 255 is a "blow up" to you then you still did very good

You should find fuel sources that don't make you puke and maybe you won't run out of glycogen so early. Also, practice your race day fueling scheme on long runs so make sure you won't have stomach issues.

More miles, longer pre-race preparation, practice fueling methods on long runs to see how it affects you, a caffeinated carbohydrate drink/gel/whatever in latter half of race.

You did decent on the lower mileage, so probably naturally talented, but bonked because you went in unprepared

Here's my opinion for you. I think your training was decent for your first one, and that you don't necessarily need to change anything for your next one, except perhaps building a bit more mileage now that you have one injury-free cycle under your belt. Try to increase to 55-65 mpw or even 60-70 if you're taking mileage increase well, and I would also recommend training for longer than 8 weeks - that is actually pretty short. Try something longer - at least 10-12 weeks if not more. So those are a couple things that will simply help with endurance.

It seems the major thing was that you ran out of fuel, so you need to find a way to get in fuel during the marathon. Try practicing MP at least a couple times for 6-10 miles or something, and practice taking in different kinds of fuel to find out what your body will allow you to take. Bottom line is, the way I see it, you have to fuel, because of the length and pace of the marathon, so you need to find something. Also, I suppose that since you felt like you might pass out, I guess it's possible you were not hydrated very well either. I don't know what you did but I hope you were taking water every mile or two, even if just a little bit, no matter the weather.

So there's an opinion from me. Not that I'm ultra-experienced or anything but I have run 3 marathons (2:58 PR). Good luck with your next one!!

You need way more training volume and practice with mid-race fueling.

Based on your other PRs/training history, you should be able to run in the 2:35 range or possibly faster with consistently higher mileage.

MarathonDebutBlowUP wrote:

I ran my first marathon on Sunday hoping to run ~2:45.

Previously, I have run the half marathon in 1:16 with very low volume training (25-30 mpw), 6 miles (road) in 31:50, 5K in 16:14 and 2 miles in 9:38, so I figured I was in shape for a 2:45.

My training consisted of 50-60 mpw for about 8 weeks with 1 "long run" per week ranging from 15-20 miles and either a medium length tempo run (i.e. 6 miles at 5:45 pace) or intervals 4 x mile in 5:25 with 3 min rest or 10 x 800 in 2:35 w/2 min rest. I tapered by reducing my mileage to 40 and then 30 for the two weeks prior to the race and carbo loaded for the last 72 hours. I felt fresh at the start and ready to click off 6:20 pace for the marathon.

This is very interesting to me -- very similar stats to you. Post-college PRs are 1:16 in the half and 16:28 5k, both off of 20-25 mpw. Also ran a 2:54 full a couple of year ago peaking at 32 mpw (was aiming for sub-2:50, so can relate to your blow-up). Now targeting a fall marathon with a goal of sub-2:45. Running about 30-35 mpw now and hoping to peek at about 45, doing workouts similar to what you did. Here's my 2 cents:

1) I don't think you necessarily need more mileage, but I do think you need a longer build. If you could do the 50-60 mpw you did for 12-18 weeks rather than 8 weeks, I think you would have been closer to your goal. I'm doing a 12 week build now, but I really wish I would have started earlier. If this doesn't work out, I'm going to shoot for at least a 16 week build next time, preferably 18.

2) As others have mentioned, you really need to practice your nutrition plan during your build, so you know what your body will tolerate and what it won't. Obvi only take the same gel (and flavor) on race day that you used in practice.

3) As someone mentioned, you might have been dehydrated. Your race sounds eerily similar to the only other full I've run where the day was sneaky hot and I barely drank until the later miles -- limped home like you did after about mile 17 and ended up in the medical tent after almost passing out across the line. They told me I was severely dehydrated.

Anyway, good luck.

If you can run sub 2:45 off of 30-35mpw.. you are capable of much MUCH faster.. do you even long run bro?

Exactly how do your workouts (6 mile tempo, 4x1 mile) prepare you for a 26 mile race?

You need to be doing 10-12 mile tempos at marathon pace every 10 days or so with maybe a 16 miler at marathon pace thrown in there 3-4 weeks out. For "intervals" try more like 8x1 mile or 4x2 miles at HM pace with only 1-2 min recovery.

Dingler wrote:

Exactly how do your workouts (6 mile tempo, 4x1 mile) prepare you for a 26 mile race?

You need to be doing 10-12 mile tempos at marathon pace every 10 days or so with maybe a 16 miler at marathon pace thrown in there 3-4 weeks out. For "intervals" try more like 8x1 mile or 4x2 miles at HM pace with only 1-2 min recovery.

This is what I am kind of thinking... I ran sub 2:30 about a dozen times and found that pounding higher mileage was much more helpful than something like 4 x 5:25. I am not even sure what that will do for you if you're trying to run 6:20 pace.

I abandoned track work after a while and decided to work on longer workouts, like running the last 8 miles of a 16-miler at race pace or slightly under. That kind of thing really helped me get under 2:30.

I think you need to up your mileage and start working at maintaining race pace for longer workouts.

I never used fuel in my races, so I cannot speak to that aspect of your training. but it goes without saying that if you think you need fuel, go ahead and train with it so that you're comfortable with it.

I don't run marathons anymore because I have kids ;)

Don't let it get you down. Based on your times, you can probably get well below 2:45, but you'll have to work for it. Good luck!

Your Central Governor broke.

More 18-22 Mile Long runs with MP in the mix. Gel every 5-6 miles and alternate Gatorade/Water every mile. Always use water with your gels and not Gatorade. 10-12 Mile progression runs are also great workouts.

A first marathon only 10 minutes off your goal is not a blow-up.

What Gel did you use? I have found PowerGels the easiest to get down because they are more liquidy.

For two of my completed marathons, I have used a 12-week plan from the Pfitzinger/Douglas book, and the marathon for which I am training now, I am also using a 12-week plan from the book. Pfitzinger's "philosophy", if you will, is that the three main things with running are running economy, lactate threshold, and VO2 max; and so if you improve those three things, you're going to get faster. Now, I think that could apply to all distance races, although there might be slightly different emphases as the distance changes. Obviously there are other factors which go into running, although one could argue that a lot of them either directly or indirectly relate to the above three things. In any case, Pfitz's plans involve tempos and VO2max work. There is at least one "workout" per week (and sometimes a couple, but usually not). Each week includes a long run of 16-24 miles, with three of them including marathon pace miles (anywhere from 8-12 MP miles); he puts 1 to 2 medium-long runs of 12-15 miles in per week; and then usually at least 1 workout, whether a tempo or VO2max work.

Now, I can understand how this training wouldn't work for someone; someone else may want to do more workouts because they think they're not getting better unless they're always doing workouts, and some people can handle it. Personally, though, I have found the Pfitzinger plans to work very well. They have prepared me to run my goal times, both times, and I know it will do so this time as well (though I might have too soft of a goal...). They allow for one to run lots of mileage to build endurance, and I think mileage is very, very important to running - my very general philosophy is, the more body the miles can handle, the better runner (especially long-distance runner but also applies to many "shorter" distance races) one can become. And the only way some people will feel comfortable with doing, or that they are able to do, higher mileage is if the "quality" work is kept down.

I think that the alternate workouts suggested by a couple people are fine - and there wouldn't be any harm if the OP tried them out. I guess I just wanted to make a defense for doing tempos and "speed" work.

Ackley wrote:

A first marathon only 10 minutes off your goal is not a blow-up.

What Gel did you use? I have found PowerGels the easiest to get down because they are more liquidy.

I used a Clif Shot mocha flavored gel (with caffeine). It is very sticky and thick, hence the gagging. Probably a bad move... Couldn't stomach any fuel after trying to take that, so I think I was pretty glycogen depleted by mile 18.

During longer runs (90+ minutes), practice eating and drinking.

If your stomach can handle it, try to have carbs in your drink. I personally can only take water in my bottle unless I put pure maltodextrin in the water. Maltodextrin is super cheap and has a low GI load. A lot of pro cyclists use it.

As for "solid" food, you're just going to have to experiment. I've had great luck with Clif shot blocks and medjool dates. I've also had good luck with Hammer Nutrition's stuff. Neither, especially the latter, are as convenient to carry as gels.

Practice getting in 200-250 calories per hour. Obviously you want to spread this out. Sip some water every ~15 min and nibble on your food every 15-30 minutes (I each one shot block every 15-30 min if I'm also taking in liquid cals).

Also, try different gel flavors... it may have been that specific flavor that messed you up! I love some gel flavors, but can't stomach others... even within the same brand. I prefer the flavorless ones or the fruity ones.

Good example of marathon fueling:

http://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-science/haile-gebrselassies-world-record-marathon-fueling-plan

YungFartlek wrote:

If you can run sub 2:45 off of 30-35mpw.. you are capable of much MUCH faster.. do you even long run bro?

Well, I haven't run it yet. But 1:16 off of 20-25 makes me think I can. And I do go long -- week is usually 1 long run (14-20) with some steady MP or cruise intervals built in, 1 longish run with some fartlek, cruise intervals, or steady MP built in (8-10), and 1 or 2 shorter runs, usually just easy (5-8). I always take at least three days off per week, and often four (though I will often do some road cycling on one of those off days). When I ran 2:54, I peaked at about 32 or 33 mpw (1 long run, 1 short or medium tempo, 1 interval track workout, nothing else). Think I possibly had about a 2:50 in me that day, but I paced it absolutely terribly (1:21/1:33). Curious to see what I can do with 20-30% more mileage during the build and more even pacing during the race. If I can do 2:45ish off this, I'll probably try to bump it up to 45-50mpw in a year or two and see if I can go sub-2:40.

ripple wrote:If I can do 2:45ish off this, I'll probably try to bump it up to 45-50mpw in a year or two and see if I can go sub-2:40.

If you're really wanting to get that marathon time under 2:40 (and better beyond that), you should be shooting for much more mileage than 45-50mpw...

Which is more important for marathon fitness:

Consistent long runs of 23+ miles (45 sec to 1 min per mile slower than marathon pace)

or

Consistent marathon pace runs of 10-15 miles?

MarathonDebutBlowUP wrote:

Which is more important for marathon fitness:

Consistent long runs of 23+ miles (45 sec to 1 min per mile slower than marathon pace)

or

Consistent marathon pace runs of 10-15 miles?

With how few miles you're running, 23+ mile long runs are a bit much and probably too taxing to do in general (with frequency). The more important workout would be 10-15 mile runs at somewhat ABOVE marathon pace. How can you expect your long run of 10-15 miles AT marathon pace to directly convert to a more successful marathon?

More importantly than the *workout* would be to focus on the big picture. More aerobic fitness, more miles in the legs, and focusing on getting better over a longer period of time.