Want to talk to my coach without sounding like a douche

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Though my coach was great, he too didn't really have us do long runs or other common things you might associate with success. He sort of individualized each of us, which was great for training, and spent weekends just figuring everything out for the next week. He was open to new things, so when we saw different workouts, we'd bring them to him. He'd either say that he knew about it but didn't want to use it, he didn't know about it and he maybe will incorporate it, or he didn't know about it and won't use it.

My point is, it doesn't hurt to ask why. I always asked "why do we do this" or "why don't we do that" and he always had an answer that wasn't bullshit.

So ask your coach why you do things and why you don't. If he gives you an answer that's legitimate (i.e. one that isn't "because I'm the coach and what I say goes"), then try to respect that decision. But do the opposite if he doesn't seem like he knows what he's doing.

Here's an important part of this: 18 minute 5k guys shouldn't be running their easy days at 6:20 to 6:40. You need to take your hard days hard and easy days easy. If you're hardest workout is a 3x1 mile (a workout that doesn't even go longer than your race), you need to consider dropping that coach and either finding another that's willing to help you, or stock up on the vast majority of excellent running/training books out there.

Well, thing is, I do like my coach as a person and not everything he does is bad, and he writes some great workouts, especially during track season. I don't think he knows why we do certain runs and I don't think he thinks easy days are anything but for recovery and that they don't have a purpose if you could do a workout instead. I have talked to him about other things and he has been open, but like I said, I don't want to sound like I think I know more than him. And I couldn't leave my coach because then I couldn't compete. I live in a small town and this is the only school there.

How old is your coach, may I ask?

And you could certainly compete if you left. Ever hear of Matthew Maton? Ran unattached his senior year to become the 6th ever HS runner to run under 4 minutes in the mile.

He is not very old. He graduated from my HS back in like 06 I think. And I did think of Maton, but he lives in Oregon. That state is fantastic for anyone who wants to do any running. I've looked online for all-comers meets just out of curiosity and there are none in my state.

Well, I think you know the obvious answer then. You need to stand up to him

You might say..."hey coach...how hard do you want us to run these distance runs? Many of us are going close to all out or hard tempo pace. Is that what you want?" You might even add that it seems hard and that everyone is pretty wrecked afterwords...but you'd like to know what he thinks.

Does he give instruct you how hard to run before going out on a road run?

OP,

Your coach has to coach the people who actually show up. His training is designed for the average kid on the team. You know, the one who did not run a step since his last race in outdoor track. These average kids want to race each other every day. Your coach has set up your team's training so they can without completely dying during actual races.

This type of training will get lots of kids to go out for XC. Many more than would come out if the coach stressed running in the summer, running in the morning or even running 7 days a week. The ones with more talent will keep the team in the hunt in your conference, no one cares if you ever win.

The only ones who lose are those that want to outwork everyone and be good in HS even though they have no actual talent. There just aren't enough who want to become good through lots of hard work to bother with. It is possible that your coach has never met one before.

HS Cross Dude wrote:

I just feel like the tempos all the time will make me stale, and I feel like the amount of intervals and the almost-full recovery we get almost every time just isn't challenging enough. What should I say? If any of you have been through this please let me know what you said and what happened.

Our team was like that except we didn't even run tempos. I ran two miles before practice every day, and ran more intervals, than everyone else. Once the coach had everyone run two miles, in two groups. I ran both in both groups and ran another two miles afterwards, in the days when running mileage was not known.

You can run the tempos at your own pace, and extend them out to more distance. When everyone else is sitting around resting, keep running more laps. Jog between repetitions instead of sitting around resting. There are usually plenty of opportunities in practices to improvise and run more.

And feel free to talk to the coach. It doesn't have to be a major thing but just talk with him like a person you can talk with. "Hey coach some of the new guys are killing themselves on the tempos, getting worn out and not running far enough. Is there something we can say to help them get more from their workouts. I'm willing to run with them a part of the time if that helps."

I would suggest trying to bring your ideas to your coach from an educational perspective. For example, you could say "Coach, I was reading this article about Nick Willis, who does 18mi LR's and goes easy on easy days.

http://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/nick-willis-a-man-in-full

Quote:

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On his easy days, Willis lets his body tell him how fast to run. “It can be 5:40 pace or 7:40 pace,” he says. “I have a theory: You run as fast as you can handle, without hindering your workouts.”

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Here is another example: Ben True

http://www.runnersworld.com/world-championships/ben-true-thinks-he-can-medal-at-world-championships

Quote:

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“When I’m really tired and struggling in a workout, that’s my body telling me today’s not the day to be running hard and that I need to recover a little bit more,” True says. “In a group setting it’s easier for me to push and get caught up in the group atmosphere and get set back.

“I know the feeling of not having it that day and maybe running five seconds slower [per interval] and that I’ll still get the benefit that workout is supposed to give,” he says. “And I know the feeling of being utterly exhausted and your body’s shutting down and there’s no point in going any farther. Then you just need to step off the track. That’s a benefit of training by myself.”

If your coach is not receptive and seems to go against well established practices without giving you any reason, do what you must. Starting with, backing off on easy days, let your teammates go. Run doubles. Get your long run in on Sunday etc...

Good luck!

Well, nobody can force you to run your distance days too fast. You just need to fight your ego. Let them race their practices and then crush them on actual race day.

Not sure I can offer any advice that will help, other than to ask questions of your coach in a respectful and humble manner. If you come across as challenging him, it will have an adverse effect.

I had a similar problem with my HS coach (about a million years ago!). He designed a training program to the best of his ability and knowledge, but some of what he was prescribing was actually detrimental to our team's progress and performance. I kept my mouth shut for two years while also educating myself on successful training philosophies and practices. When I finally approached him with a few questions and suggestions my senior year, he was very dismissive and simply said "You read too much."

Tough situation. When I ran in HS I had a similar situation, and it seems that small town teams are especially prone to this as usually there is only one coach and the training seems to be catered to a \"one size fits all\" approach at times. Since I was the fastest kid on the team I was able to run my \"easy\" pace on easy days - when I was running high 16\'s for 5k this was around 7-8:00 pace. However, there were 19-21 minute 5k guys who would try to keep up with me some days when I was running a 7:10 clip. Depending on how many miles a week kids are running, I do believe that running with faster runners can help you improve to some extent, but at some point the best way to improve is to run at a manageable pace and possibly add in some miles on your own, which is what you seem to be hoping to do.

The other problem I often noticed with my teammates was their intervals. Despite the coach\'s instructions, they would often do interval workouts in which there was not a huge variance in their interval and recovery pace. Even in an 8x200m workout they would \"kinda\" run the 200\'s hard, and then jog back at a decent clip before starting the next one. I always thought I got the best workout by running the 200\'s pretty darn hard, even if it meant a slooooow jog back for recovery. Sometimes for the first few reps I\'d find myself losing my teammates in the dust the first few reps, only to be passed by them in the recovery jogs. Every time though I\'d make ground on them as that wore them out fast.

As for a solution, I agree with the guy who said to just go up to your coach and kinda say \"So do you really want us to run these easy days at this hard of a pace?\" Not really in a way that\'s taken as rude but just one that hints that you think they\'re going a little too fast.

Good luck. And if you are doing extra miles on your own like I did (the team mileage was maybe 30 mpw like yours), just be sure to take those at a nice easy pace since you\'ll be getting in the hard stuff with the team.

It sounds like there are two separate issues here, but I'm not sure "how do I talk to my coach" is one of them.

The first is illustrated by the volume issue. The team mpw is low, and this is likely because there are more runners on the team who can't (at least, not yet) handle higher volume than those who can. You are one of the ones who can - and you run extra on your own. Good for you - this takes real determination. And yes, it's a hassle. But in organized running - a team iteration of an individual sport - there is always going to be some level of tension between what is ideal training for each individual and the training that can be done as a group. Your coach is not going to make everybody run the program that would work best for you, obviously. To make it even possible to train as a group, he's got to have a program that most of the group can do.

Now, of course, many coaches, perhaps as the season goes along, start to subdivide their teams into smaller training groups - does your coach not do this? If there is any "talking to the coach" to be done here, perhaps it would be best if you and whichever other guys are at your level approached your coach as a group and asked for a little more differentiation in volume and pace for your group.

The other issue is running too hard on easy days and guys racing each other in practice. I have news for you: This issue is as old as the sport, and it isn't going to be solved even if your coach tells everyone to take it easy. It is a function of the group running dynamic and people being naturally competitive. I just pulled out one of my XC logs from college, 25 years ago in a Div. I program, and there I am, complaining about dudes pushing it on easy days. I always chuckled when my non-runner friends would get *so* worked up in things like evening pick-up basketball or softball games...for them, that was their main competitive outlet, but since I had already practiced at least once and often twice that day, and most practices devolved into some level of racing, I had already had more than enough competition for the day and wasn't going to be diving for any balls or arguing about foul calls. Anyway, I digress. Some folks above already said it best - listen to your body, don't get sucked into running your easy days too hard, and reap the rewards on race day.

As for what might be smarter training approaches for the other guys on your team that are generally running too hard too often, well, at some level that is on them and the coach and not really your concern. You can do things differently when you are a coach and from the sound of things you very well may be one someday. Good luck.

All of your concerns are fair and justified, and importantly you're coming from a place of wanting to get better and help your team get better. Because of this, I suggest you talk to your coach. However, a few points:

-Do it outside of practice. Questioning his training in front of other athletes (who don't know your full situation) might not seem to him like a challenge, but the other athletes might interpret it that way.

-Be respectful. It sounds like you already respect your coach, so this is likely a given. Most coaches have the right philosophy (athletes first), even if they haven't got all the right tools to do the job.

-Be honest. What's wrong with explaining to him how you feel about tempos and intervals as you've explained it here? Your last paragraph doesn't sound douchy, it sounds like an opinion. Either he has an explanation or won't, will consider alternatives or won't.

-Try to learn where he's coming from. A lot of HS coaches don't have a great knowledge base when it comes to distance training (especially if they're teachers - not everyone comes into coaching because they were an exceptionally knowledgeable athlete with years of study in the physiology of training and the sport). Or, they're overburdened in other ways. Or they have trouble translating what they know into what they communicate to the group. Or there's things going on that aren't a part of their plans (e.g. the easy run pace). Or any number of other factors.

-Don't seek outside coaching until you've made attempts to work it out with your coach. To do so is cowardly and tremendously disrespectful. It also leaves your team in a toxic situation that won't do anyone any good.

Also, regarding the easy runs, talk to your teammates. Unless your coach is doing the easy runs with you, he probably has little control over the pace they're running (and might not even be aware). If they don't seem to be listening, then have the courage to run the right pace yourself, and then bury them on race day/hard days.

Good Luck.

This is a great post. Separate out what you and the other athletes are responsible for and own that. Then see what still needs to be addressed with Coach.

Another thing is to talk with the other guys on the team and develop your own ways of training, usually easy to do within whatever is prescribed by the coach.

Most good coaches are happy to see people take initiative with their training.

You already sound like a douche who thinks he knows everything.

Don't pay attention to anything anyone on this page says about training.

None of them are running in Beijing.

If you want to talk to your coach, talk to him.

Ask him about his training ideas. How could you get better at a specific thing.

Make it a discussion between adults, and maybe you will find out that he know stuff, too.

This sounds so much like my high school that I have to ask if it is. Is the most accomplished ever runner from the school someone who never ran a step of cross country in high school, but played soccer all 4 years instead? Does the next town over produced more world elite distance runners than possibly any other in North America? (Multiple NCAA champs and 2 different people who were ranked in the world top 2?) The head coach at the next school over is a really nice guy; I'd bet he would let you run with them in the summer. As for your problem? Adjust your sleep schedule, and start getting in runs in the AM.

Or it could be a different place....