Do you think I can run a ~ 3:05 marathon based on this training?

Looks to be quite a comprehensive scheduele you have there, nice. Seems well thought out.

Personally, I'd like to see an extra day a week where you dip under your marathon pace. There are a lot of easy runs or longer runs quite a bit slower than marathon pace. If, as you say, you can't up the mileage (which i don't think you need to do anyway) then another way to improve is to add some more speed.

That 3x10' session is very nice. Maybe try and add one more of those a week? Instead of a slower run I mean. Gets you used to a faster pace and might be just what you need to improve your times. I say "might be" because there's no one way of improving; this is just my honest, humble opinion.

Also consider a rest day every now and then. Anyone with a bit of training and dedication and your build should be able to get under 3 hours on the marathon with a 6-day a week training plan. Rest is a very important part of your training that is often overlooked!

As for predicting a marathon time from your 10k achievements and the 2 weeks of training posted here... that's asking something that's sure to have a very wide margin of error. However, I think a time of around 3.05 should be possible with the training you're currently doing. Provided you stay fit of course. Again though, this is nothing but a wild stab in the dark.

And as people always ask for credentials here before even taking a post on the forums seriously, I'm a 2.47 marathoner. Not great, but meh. Take it or leave it ^_^.

Many thanks! This is quite useful feedback.

Agree on another quality day, good spot. I normally do the classic "speed on Tue" (e.g. fartlek), "tempo" on Thu, hard trail on Sat, and long MP run on Sunday but felt a bit too sore at the beginning of week 2 after 13 @ 6:59 on Sunday.

I should have noted all above is in 80+ F given this is August in NYC and I am not a morning person.

Other quality runs over the past few months have included:

- 8 mile aerobic wave tempo (alternate miles at 6:40, 7:20 for 8 mi)

- 4 mile anaerobic wave tempo (alternate 0.5 mile at 6:19, 6:55 for 4 mi)

- 9 miles incl. 2 x 3 mile at 6:40

- 16 x 30" / 30" (5:30 pace for the reps)

Things like that, and many progression runs. In the winter/spring I did up to 9 miles continuous at 6:40 long "tempo" but it was much cooler than now.

My poor marathon experience by the way is due to cramps (hamstring and quads), which was the slowing factor. That's why I am slowing 1) ramping up more mileage and 2) do "strength runs" at MP right off the bat as I did, having built them up to 14 mi at this time.

For rest days I feel like I do well on a 7 day schedule, then take a bunch of days off altogether when needed (e.g 3 to 5 days completely off to "break" the training). After that time off I usually respond well.

And finally 2:47 is not meh! That's real strong and something I look up to, big time. I've run 8,500 miles since my first run and still suck! But I keep progressing bit by bit even at my old age.

Former 2:38 guy here, seriously considering building for a "comeback", targeting sub-3:00 at 60 (Big Dreams are Good Dreams! ya)

You have a solid, "grinder" type schedule. Should pay off long-term.

For my old but fast-twitchy body, I prefer more hard-easy, with mileage builds like 35-50-40-55-35-40-65, etc. peaking with a 75 or 80. Also focus on a really long run once a month, 2.5 hours minimum (did that yesterday on trails), and peaking with at least a 3 hour long run 6 weeks prior to the race. Also a 10K or 1/2 marathon with negative split about 4 weeks .

"Zero tolerance" for niggles and injury: I back off and work them out before getting back on course (stopped ten times yesterday to work out a lower leg issue with yoga and massage, by the end it was good and feels great today).

Also, strides (10x100) a couple times a week are essential, and I do more speed work on easy weeks (short hill reps, pyramids mile-400, etc.)

I've helped folks get some great PRs off this type of training, one won the overall women for a mid-sized city marathon. She ran 2:53 off of a 37 min 10K, 1:25 1/2 in the buildup and her pervious best in six marathons was 3:11, so, yeah a BIG race for her.

The only thing missing is a long run. You should run 20+ miles every 10 days, with your last long run taking place about 2 weeks before race day.

Do that and, yes, I think you can get close to 3:05.

you should run more mileage -- 60 miles a week.

Week 3 (remember it's hot out!)

Mon 4.5 mi easy in 38' (avg 8:30)

Tue 9.3 mi in 1h14, incl. 6 x 800 Intervals w/ 2' Rest (splits 3:01, 3:00, 3:01, 2:59, 2:59, 2:58)

Wed 5.4 mi easy in 45'

Thu 9.4 miles in 1hr09 incl. 2 x 20' Long Tempo Intervals @ 6:39

Fri 4 mi easy in 35:00

Sat 9 miles in 1hr19 (fast finish trail run with last two in 7:30, 6:55)

Sun 15 miles long run in 1:47:15, average 7:08: first 5 at 7:26, middle 5 at 7:04 and last 5 at 6:55.

Total 56.6 miles in 7 hours 27 min.

Supplemented by four 60' Vinyasa Yoga classes on Mon/Tue/Thu/Sat

and short core workouts on Wed/Fri

Total training time 11 hours 52 min.

This is the hardest I've even trained: 155 miles in 3 weeks, including a lot of quality runs I think and hard long runs at goal pace. I have significant travels planned from September 1 through 5, so I may take that time off or very few miles. In the meantime, I have the full week free to do more...so I am thinking of going for my first 60 miles week ever.

I may structure that week as in week 2:

Easy Mon and Fri (~ 5 each)

Medium Tue and Thu (~ 7 each)

Hard Wed (~ 10)

Then same type of weekend as in 10 miles trail Sat, hard 15 on Sun

What do you think? Do these last 3 weeks indicate ~3:05 potential? This is hard training for me, but I feel I gained significant strength. That being said last 3 days have been a bit run on tired legs, so I need to sleep more and rest well/hydrate etc.

My last few paragraphs refer to week 4, which I didn't state well.

Wk 1 46.7 w/ 2 quality runs + 13 LR @ 6:59

Wk 2 52.3 w/ 1 quality run + 14 LR @ 7:00

Wk 3 56.6 w/ 2 quality runs + 15 LR @ 7:08

Wk 4 ?

Wk 5 Rest/Down Wk

I'm thinking Wk 4 = scaled up Wk 2 to 60 miles with LR of either 15 a bit faster, or 16 slower at about 7:15

Sub 3 Hopeful wrote:

My last few paragraphs refer to week 4, which I didn't state well.

Wk 1 46.7 w/ 2 quality runs + 13 LR @ 6:59

Wk 2 52.3 w/ 1 quality run + 14 LR @ 7:00

Wk 3 56.6 w/ 2 quality runs + 15 LR @ 7:08

Wk 4 ?

Wk 5 Rest/Down Wk

I'm thinking Wk 4 = scaled up Wk 2 to 60 miles with LR of either 15 a bit faster, or 16 slower at about 7:15

Finished Wk 4 which is my first 60 miles week ever.

Key workouts were:

- Wed 3 x 10' Tempo Intervals @ 6:16 average w/ 2' rest (10.5 mi total)

- Sat 10 miles fast finish trail run (last two 7:30, 7:00)

- Sun 15 miles MP run @ 6:59 average (last 10 miles 6:54 average)

Mon / Fri easy 4.5 and 5.5 at 8:45 and 8:30 avg, resp

Tue / Thu progression runs 7 and 7.7 mi avg around 8:00 with final miles in the 7:30 range

Also 4 yoga classes and 1 core. Total time 12 hours including a bit less than 8 hours for the 60 miles.

Question 1: am I too hardcore with those long MP runs? Did 13, 13, 14, 15, 15 over the past 5 weeks at or around 7:00, and today was 84F so that makes it more uncomfortable. I sweat a lot but was not breathing hard, felt good although I will probably be sore a bit tmrw.

My rationale is that I progress better but doing these specific long runs rather than a slow long run of 20-22 miles. I have 8 weeks until the race now.

Question 2: I am traveling like a mad man (redeyes, long flights) both this coming week (call it wk 5 and then again wk 7). Is it going to ruin the good work if I do something like the following:

(Previous 4 weeks averaged ~ 54 mpw)

Wk 5 down week of only 35 mpw due to heavy travel, long run 12 on weekend

Wk 6 high week again of 60 miles, long run 16 a bit slower than 7:00 also with 10 mi day before

Wk 7 travel again, maybe 40 miles?

Wk 8 high week of 60-65 with long run 16 as in Wk 6 and 10 day before

Wk 9 medium week of 50 due to travel for wedding

Wk 10 final hard week of 60-65 maybe long run 17 in 2:00? Again 10 miles day before

Wk 11 taper 1

Wk 12 taper 2 and race on Sunday

As you see I don't plan on going more than 16-17 (mayyybe 18) miles in training, but I want to run these hard on a tired legs with 10 day before, so the weekend "feels" like a marathon. Historically I break down and get injured if I run 2+ hours slow. So I guess my plan is similar to Hanson, except with fast long runs. Any thoughts?

I'd worry that your lack of true long runs will bite you in the ass come race day. I understand your reasoning for not wanting to do them because you've had bad experiences in the past, but guess what your achilllies heel will be come race day...your body won't be able to handle those last few miles because you haven't trained it to do so.

Otherwise, your training looks absolutely stellar for racing in the 10 miles/half marathon range. Those tempo runs indicate much faster than 3:05 if you can build the endurance.

'- I do not want to race a half before marathon, as I take too long to recover from all out. I think I could run 1:25 or slightly under.'

As you are so sure of what you are doing why ask for advice

I think you're missing overall volume, which would be preferable, or in the absence of overall volume, a long run. Why are your easy days so short? Sure, they are meant to be easy effort, but that doesn't mean the runs have to be short. For the most part, it's intensity that gets people injured, not easy volume, yet for the marathon, that's where you get the most bang for the buck.

"Otherwise, your training looks absolutely stellar for racing in the 10 miles/half marathon range."

This. Tell us more about how you ran your 3:16 at NYC.

i think that all you need is to race once or twice soon to see what shape you're in. i like your training but we need to see some test of fitness. long run at 7min pace are good but don't really indicate that you could hold 7:00s for 26mi. why not do a 20 miler? start at 8:30s, drop down ~5 sec/mi until you're cruising around 7min pace for the last couple miles. hop in some cold water, eat a bunch, go for a walk, and you won't feel too bad the next day.

justsomeguy345 wrote:

The only thing missing is a long run. You should run 20+ miles every 10 days, with your last long run taking place about 2 weeks before race day.

Do that and, yes, I think you can get close to 3:05.

OP doesn't seem to have built up to that sort of LR. Maybe going a bit above 16 is what he should do, save the longer LRs for next cycle and do a proper build up then.

OP: I would also advise against doing LRs at MP. You have the speed for a sub3, you don't have the endurance. No need to run 14+ at MP, this is the type of workout that would benefit someone with a highly developed aerobic house. Yours is not. Think multi cycle.

I agree about the longer long runs......18-22 Milers are a must for the marathon.

I've run 3:05, 3:08, 3:03, 2:54 Boston, 3:09, 2:58 Boston off of 3 days per week schedule.

Sunday 18-26 miler

Tuesday 8-10 miles of track work

Thursday 8-12 miles (tempo or hilly route)

HMArunner wrote:

I've run 3:05, 3:08, 3:03, 2:54 Boston, 3:09, 2:58 Boston off of 3 days per week schedule.

Sunday 18-26 miler

Tuesday 8-10 miles of track work

Thursday 8-12 miles (tempo or hilly route)

I am always impressed when I see people post rubbish like this. This is awful training, injury prone, and short sighted.

How so? LOL

NO