Frustrated old guy question

You are currently out of shape. Why in the world would you attempt back to back hard efforts? Space your harder efforts out by a few days and you will feel better. It is going to take your body time to adapt, so give it time. It seems like you do not have a plan, nor a goal and in general don't know what you are doing. Is this a correct assessment? (We all start somewhere).

Let me start by saying I am not a coach, an elite runner or even very fast but I am an old guy (50) who is in fairly good shape. Take this for what it's worth and I'm sure I will get slammed but here goes. YOU ARE RUNNING TOO FAST. I started out a year and a half ago in better shape than you as far as height and weight and I was coming off of a mid life motocross career. I bought a heart rate monitor and a watch. I did run walks where I would walk 5 minutes run 5 minutes never letting my heart rate get above 120, sometimes 125. I did this for 6 weeks. After that my longer runs were with heart rate under 140. You need to build an aerobic base before you go crazy with 10K + anything paces. Lose the weight and get in shape first but slowly.

Right now you are lucky. You are asking this question before your over training causes an injury that makes you have to take a break.

I don't know what you should weigh but it is less than 185. It could be 138, 148 or even 158 but until you get there, do not do more than one hard day a week.

Use that one hard day a week to remind yourself that you can feel like a runner. One week do your 5 miler at 10k + 30, the next week do something like 400s at 10k pace with 100m walk jog rests. The other 4 or 5 or 6 days a week just get out the door and run at 10k + 3:00, maybe + 2.45.

All your mental energy should go into improving your diet. Dropping that weight if you think old school. At your age exercise IS NOT ENOUGH.

sklj28973knlxz wrote:

Right now you are lucky. You are asking this question before your over training causes an injury that makes you have to take a break.

I don't know what you should weigh but it is less than 185. It could be 138, 148 or even 158 but until you get there, do not do more than one hard day a week.

Use that one hard day a week to remind yourself that you can feel like a runner. One week do your 5 miler at 10k + 30, the next week do something like 400s at 10k pace with 100m walk jog rests. The other 4 or 5 or 6 days a week just get out the door and run at 10k + 3:00, maybe + 2.45.

All your mental energy should go into improving your diet. Dropping that weight if you think old school. At your age exercise IS NOT ENOUGH.

Also 50+, 5'9" and 150-52. Am I overweight and out of shape too?

age grade near 90, but does that suck by letsrun masters standards?

Thanks folks.

Couple of responses to questions.

I only used 10k + times to avoid saying how embarrassingly slow I'm running. Fear of trolls. But I'll go all in. Have run 5k at just under 8:00 minute miles. 10k would might be 45 sec per mile slower I think but haven't run one. A good 5 mile run is about 9:15 a mile. Easy feeling good runs are 10:00 per mile over undulating terrain. The slow slog was closer to 11.30 per mile.

Regarding goals. My goal is to do a 5k at under 7 min/mile. basically breAk 22 minutes as a round number. That's a pace that I feel for me would be running.

Do I have a plan. Admittedly no not really. My plan is to get out and run nearly everyday. As much as a divorced dad of teen soccer and hockey players can.

Regarding weight. I'm a hockey player (yes still) and will carry more weight than a pure runner so my high school running weight is out of the question. That said my goal is 160. So 25lbs. I've stopped drinking all colas including diet colas. Working on healthier eating, limiting snacks etc but progress is admittedly slower thN expected or hoped. I have only dropped about 10lbs to dAte to get to the 185.

Regarding over training; I hear you but struggle to equate the over training of an in shape person pounding the pavement to merely trying to jog 9:00 miles. Ego getting in the way? Perhaps.

Regarding heart rate: I was going by feel when I mentioned hear rate. I do wear a monitor at times but not regularly. I have a good feel for where my heart rate is without a strap. Max heart rate is 191. 5k pace would be about 175-180. The run on Monday I referenced would have been ranging between 160 and 175 depending on hills but would avg about 165. Easy runs are right around 145. The bad feeling run would have had heart rate above 150 when it should have been 125. All numbers approximate. As I said I don't wear the strap more thN once a week but I have a good feel for heart rate ranges.

Thanks for your posts.

I have been looking forward to incorporating some track workouts so maybe I'll try the 400s.

If you run by time, space out hard efforts, run every day, for about 4 months, you will improve dramatically. Be patient.

Come back in 4 months and tell me how you crushed your 22min 5k goal. Good luck man.

if you are playing hockey also, that could be contributing to feeling extremely fatigued on some days. I'm sure you thought of that, but you didn't mention it in the initial post, so possibly you are underestimating the effects of the hockey sessions.

In addition, some people on this site love to criticize the "Run Less Run Faster" book, but for over 50's, it has some valuable ideas- I recommend you read it and see if it has any value for you.

I think you are eating too much gluten.

Frustrated old guy wrote:

I seem to have one, maybe two good runs per week and 2 or 3 God awful no energy want to lay down and take a nap runs.

How normal is this for a guy over 50?

Do I just need to get in better shape and that will go away?

Should I see a doctor?

Normal.

Probably.

Yes. (It's always I good idea to get a complete blood panel every so often.)

Welcome to getting older. I'm 50+... okay, 60+... and there are days I just don't have it.

But in your case, you need to be patient. What's happening is that it's taking you longer to recover than it used to. You should be able to go hard-easy-hard-easy, but you might need two easy days before the next hard day. Go by your HRM and it will get you through this. If your HR seems unusually high, back off or do an alternate workout. You need to recover (rest) to do the next hard workout with good quality.

Example: I've done a hard workout, then on the next day, I'd do an easy four miles with a HR 4-6 beats faster than it should have been. Obviously, I wasn't recovered. The following day, I'd do the same easy run and my HR would be only 0-2 beats faster than normal.

a lot of good comments thus far, my layered comments

- RECOVERY. it's so important and chances are good you're not actually doing it very well. it's not an easy day at this age. i need two minimum before any pop returns.

- DIET. more important than ever before, continuing on an upward trajectory.

- STRENGTH. not yet mentioned and i've found it most important. age weakens you. running weakens you. and age makes it tougher to rebuild it. a little lifting/whatever goes a long way towards staying healthy, running faster easier (heartrate issue), and candidly, simply enjoying the sport.

If you're serious you find a plan and stick to it. Wasting time on reading forums and web articles will not get you there. With a plan you won't run too fast (5 miles at 10k+30s is WAY too hard for you) but you won't slack off either.

Following a program isn't easy. But if you're not able to do that you will definitely not be able to make your own program.

Go to the doctor. Anyone over 50 who has any kind of heart issue on a run needs to go to the doctor and have some tests run. I have a too long list of very fit runners who ignored symptoms and ended up in the ER one day fighting for life. Heart issues are just not something that you want to play games with after 50. It is so much easier to treat a heart condition before there is major trauma.

Otherwise, cross training the day after a hard run can become a fact of life for 50+ running. Especially if you are holding some extra weight.

Hockey season is over for me so no impact there on fatigue. However, the Hawks and Wild are still alive with games that go to 11pm or later so maybe hockey is impacting my rest. ;)

To others: I'm not consciously trying to run hard two days in a row. I just want that easy day after the hard day to be enjoyable and not a slog where I just want to (and sometimes do) sit down and close my eyes for 5 minutes in the middle of the run.

Regarding the book reference - I have that book; probably time to reread, and actually absorb the lesson.

Another goal is to wipe that smirk off my 14 year-old daughter's face when she runs with me and she reminds me that the hard run we just did was actually a jog. The arrogance reminds me of somebody. That goal is probably hopeless though.

Cheers

Lose weight by going vegan. Consult with doc about blood pressure and cholesterol.

Run only conversational miles until fitness returns. Don't be hard On yourself. You will get your ruNning Life back within a year. Read on veganism, health, Running. Start with J urek s Eat & Run. Ignore people on here who extol the western diet.

First, how do you know your HR spiked early in that run? Chest strap HR monitor? Those are notoriously flaky at the beginning of a run (before you start sweating). At any rate I agree with the others that say go see a doc to make sure there isn't any issue with your heart.

Second, losing weight is super important. I've been a runner for 25 years and for the first 15 or so of those years I came in at 5'9" and between 170 and 185 pounds. I thought I was doing great with one sub-3 marathon to my credit at age 39. 10 years ago I decided I wanted more so I concentrated on cleaning up my diet and dropped down to 150. Holy crap. I ran SO much better it is unbelievable. Weight loss and not any increase in mileage or workload has me running the best I've ever run in those 25 years ... at 53 years old. F* me, I wish I'd gotten serious when I was younger.

I wasnt wearing a heart rate monitor.

I guess it's an assumption based on how hard I was breathing and how much effort was necessary to motor a 12 minute mile.

I can also relate to where you are.

I'm 57 and have dropped about 30 lbs. with another 25 to go to get back to where I want to be. I've been back at it for about 6 months, but realistically need another 6 months of consistent running before doing any serious training. Likely so do you.

For now, just enjoy the process.Run how you feel. Make each day easy and comfortable unless you feel like picking things up. What I found is that my daily average easy run pace has dropped from about 10:30 to 9 minutes on average. I know it's frustrating when your race pace now is slower than your average easy run pace used to be, but it's where you are.

I saw a statement from Greg McMillan who said you (masters runners getting back into shape) need to do the training to be able to do the training to actually do the training. Good advice.

By the way, McMillan Running and Pete Magill over at Running Times have good masters advice online. Check them out. Good Luck.

As a precaution, get an EKG. Having a cardiologist check you out is a decent idea.

I'm a 58 year old runner, with electrical heart issues. I control it by cutting back alcohol, caffeine and sugar. I also take taurine amino acid supplement.

I'm not saying this is your problem, but it would not hurt to check it out.

For a couple years, I'd start a race, get an irregular heart beat, and I'd have to slow way down or drop out.

Over the last year, I've been able to successfully complete 5 out of 6 races with no problems.

A couple of my training partners are in their 50s, and they are faster than me in the marathon. I'm not saying everyone is built the same, but it gives me hope that you don't lose as much aerobically as you think at that age. Of course, they are very skinny.For starters, I agree with those who said to visit a doctor as a precautionary measure.

Frustrated old guy wrote:

Do I have a plan. Admittedly no not really. My plan is to get out and run nearly everyday. As much as a divorced dad of teen soccer and hockey players can.

I think the advice is the same whether you're in your 50s or 30s. Don't try to get it all back at once. I started a comeback a couple years ago and slogged through 9-minute miles at first. It was embarrassing how much I sucked wind. I remember a "tempo" effort that was at 7:15 pace. I can run that on easy days now.

There's no real secret to running - consistency is what matters. You're on the right track when you say your plan is to get out and run nearly everyday. I don't know how long you've been back at it, but if it's less than a few months, you have no reason to doubt yourself.

Forget intervals for now. You need to get in the habit of running again, plain and simple. You have no aerobic fitness and are overweight. This can be taken care of by running daily, gradually increasing mileage and watching what you eat/drink. Especially the latter - cutting down on alcohol is an easy way to shed pounds and improve sleep.

And no excuses. You note that you're a divorced dad of teen soccer and hockey players, as if that should hold you back. I have two young kids who can't feed themselves, wake up several times at night and who have to be watched at all times, as well as a full-time job and full-time working spouse. I run 70-80 mpw. I don't watch TV. If running is important to you, wake up early and get your run in. Go on your lunch break. It's all about building a running habit again.