Spring Marathoners: Ask JK Anything

Fast long run; How fast? How long? How often?

What would you recommend for quality runs if I live in an area that currently has almost no extended areas clear of snow (Boston)? Avoiding tracks and treadmills if possible.

I'm running the Boston Marathon this year. Ran it in 2013 and had a bad race, so need advice on how to change that. In 2013, my goal was to run 3:30. I started at 8:00-8:10/mile pace and cramped up after the first 6 miles of downhill. Did I start too fast? Not enough downhill running in training (probably)?

My last marathon was Newport in May 2014 and I ran 3:27. Was "in shape/on pace" for 3:20ish at 20 miles, then as many marathons go, faded over the last 10K.

I would *like* to run 3:20 or under at Boston 2015, but am not feeling confident on that course because of the hills. Any advice on pacing?

last time out, I ran 2:38 on 8 weeks of 112 mpw with, typically, a 4-8 mile tempo @HM (on the low end) or half at HM and half at MP (so, 22-22:40 for a 4M tempo up to the first half of an 8M tempo just under 6 and the second half at 5:35), and a shorter track workout of something between 12x200 or 12x300 to 7xmile@5:30ish (200-400j). Then there would be a 20-22 mile long run, alternating weeks with either 7 minute pace or finishing the last 10-13M at MP (usually around 6 flat but I did the last of these at low 5:40s). I also ran pr's of 33:40 10k and 55:50 10M. I'm old.

What can I do to knock the marathon time down to that last long run pace and chase a sub 2:30?

wejo wrote:

I want to create a virtual online training group for anyone doing a marathon and talk about training, etc.

There is the Road Racing and Training Thread that is posted every week...

Do you not know the most consistent thread/group on your own website??

What are you're thoughts on maximal overload microcycles? Do you think they could benefit any runner regardless of ability level?

I have a marathon PR of 2:28 and was seriously considering using them from time to time over my cycle. Mileage averages around 85-95 for a full marathon cycle with a 12 week base average of 105mpw. I have been pretty consistent with those numbers over the past 3-4 years. I have run 120mpw for a month at times but any longer but any longer than that and I start to breakdown. I feel I have maxed out my aerobic capacity for this given mileage but just can't take the beating from anything higher and I am looking at other ways of adding stress to my training.

What kind of overload would you suggest if I was to implement this approach and how much? Mileage, Intensity or density.

wejo wrote:

I want to create a virtual online training group for anyone doing a marathon and talk about training, etc.

I think a good way to kick if off would be for JK to answer some of your best training questions. So if you've got a question post it here.

Wasn't he supposed to answer training questions from a thread about 6 months ago? I'd love to hear ANYTHING from JK again but when was the last time anything was posted from him?

jjjjjj wrote:

last time out, I ran 2:38 on 8 weeks of 112 mpw with, typically, a 4-8 mile tempo @HM (on the low end) or half at HM and half at MP (so, 22-22:40 for a 4M tempo up to the first half of an 8M tempo just under 6 and the second half at 5:35), and a shorter track workout of something between 12x200 or 12x300 to 7xmile@5:30ish (200-400j). Then there would be a 20-22 mile long run, alternating weeks with either 7 minute pace or finishing the last 10-13M at MP (usually around 6 flat but I did the last of these at low 5:40s). I also ran pr's of 33:40 10k and 55:50 10M. I'm old.

What can I do to knock the marathon time down to that last long run pace and chase a sub 2:30?

Could you give more history? How many marathons have you run? What are your pr's at other distances? You are doing a lot of things right. You might be missing time/miles right at mp (5:45-5:55 pace) but more info would be helpful.

I've used my old handle from Merv's! I'll probably only be able to get to 2 to 4 of these per day, so I guess it might pile up.

Horizon wrote:

Fast long run; How fast? How long? How often?

I will arbitrarily refer to a long run as being a single continuous run of 15 miles or more. I have a 16-week advanced marathon program which can be extended to 18 weeks if additional time is needed at the outset to build up to the prescribed distances (perhaps following a longer-than-expected layoff or if preparing for a marathon course with specific challenges which require longer to develop new aspects of fitness). In this program, I have 7 entirely continuous runs of 15 miles or longer (longest option is up to 22 miles, minimum longest distance of 30k) during the time from 13 weeks out from the goal race to 3.5 weeks out from the goal race. There are 2 additional workouts involving long repeats (one is 4 x 5k, the other is 2 x 10k - or something similar depending on how things are going). These are not necessarily continuous workouts (unless the recoveries are jogged) but do involve over 15 miles of total running including warmup and cool-down and are easily as taxing as a mellow-paced continuous long run of 17 miles or more. Of course the most advanced runners may have double-run days which total 15 miles or more 3-5 times per week.

Of the 7 truly continuous long runs, 4 of them are fairly slow (with a few strides or a slight overall pace pickup during the last 2-4 miles). Two of the remaining 3 use a protocol of alternating a mile at Goal Race Pace with a mile at a slower pace (about 25% slower) in the second half of the run (the first half is a progression from easy jogging to a faster but still comfortable pace). The other long continuous run is a 17-mile effort at about 5 seconds per mile faster than Goal Race Pace, done about 3.5 weeks out from the goal race. This is preceded by a short warmup jog and a few light strides to simulate a pre-marathon warmup and also has a short cool-down jog afterwards, so the total distance is 19-20 miles. Three to four easy days follow this effort. Some runners like to have another continuous easy run of over 15 miles in the remaining time prior to the marathon.

So for "fast long runs," that is basically 3 continuous long runs and 2 other long not-necessarily-continuous workouts involving stuff at race pace or faster, with only one of the continuous runs being at race pace or faster the whole way. These long hard efforts would be about 2 weeks apart, with the 4 easier long runs distributed into the schedule more within the first 8 weeks of the 16-week program.

On all of these continuous runs (and on most of the workouts involving long reps at race pace), it is important to take fluids/fuels while running and to practice other things which are anticipated to be done during the marathon. Following the harder long runs, a simple sugar should be taken within 15 minutes, followed by a meal rich in complex carbohydrates within another hour to help replenish glycogen stores. Enough water should be taken in the hours following the run to assist in glycogen storage, as well as enough electrolytes to facilitate muscle recovery.

This program does have built-in variability in both mileage and target speeds based on how each few weeks of workouts are going and is thus not a carved-in-stone list of unmodifiable workouts written months in advance. But bear in mind that it is an advanced program intended for competitive runners with several years of prior training and racing experience and who are already able to handle at least 70 miles in a week and a single long run of at least 18 miles, so there are minimum mileages necessary for many of the key workouts, as well as the overall weekly mileages. It is not designed for people who simply wish to complete a marathon; rather, it is for those who have a time goal in mind and who have enough racing background to have an idea of what a reasonable time goal should be. In this program, runners will do single runs of 15 or more miles and workouts involving up to 3 x 15 minutes at the target marathon pace within the first 3 weeks, so they should be quite familiar with runs of this distance and pace and should not be more than a couple of months removed from them before embarking on this program. Less advanced runners may not benefit and in fact may hypertrain trying to follow this routine.

Jamaica Pond Scum wrote:

What would you recommend for quality runs if I live in an area that currently has almost no extended areas clear of snow (Boston)? Avoiding tracks and treadmills if possible.

If it's really so awful out on the roads that there isn't even a safe half mile stretch to run back-and-forth on, perhaps run to the top and back down repeatedly in a several-tier parking garage during the time of least use by cars. Even those can be filled with slush in the winter, but it's probably better than dangerous open roads or running in parks or fields with potholes under a couple of feet of snow.

Alas, I think treadmills and tracks might be the best options on some of the slushiest or iciest days, especially for faster-paced stuff. The risk of injury is too great when the surface is that bad, and you cannot hit the desired speeds in those conditions without laboring too much anyway.

But if the target race is the Boston Marathon, there might be an advantage to using a treadmill in the dead of winter because of being able to simulate downhill and uphill running in small segments at first and working up to longer segments later in the buildup (the parking garage has this up-and-down feature as well). To get an indoor downhill, just elevate the rear end of the treadmill platform with barbell plates or stacks of books or magazines. Use the gradient control button to raise the incline to level or uphill after that. Use a grade of 1% or just below that if possible to simulate level outdoor running (the lack of air resistance on the treadmill makes level-surface running slightly easier for any given speed, so a small incline adjustment is usually recommended). Downhill running is structurally taxing - and, by extension, metabolically taxing - due to the eccentric (braking) force involved. It takes several months of preparing specifically for Boston to have your best chance for success on that course, with its downhill start and the up-and-down portions later being real quad busters.

So embrace the treadmill when conditions outside are too treacherous to prevent slipping (or if you may be forced to stay in a constant state of excess muscular tension in an effort to avoid slipping). And some of the shorter workouts can be done in the outer lanes of an indoor track with no problem. Track teams do 8k worth of 400s at around 3k pace indoors all the time - in the same direction, no less - so what is so bad about doing 45 minutes at marathon goal pace while switching directions every 10-15 minutes? Of course, it is always better to do marathon pace workouts outdoors on actual roads whenever possible, so if you get a freakish winter day and can run with only a light jacket and no long-legged pants, get thee outside for sure.

That is not the answer you wanted, of course, and you probably already knew all of the above, but the fact remains that doing focused, pace-specific workouts in ice and slush sucks in all cases and can be counterproductive and often dangerous in some cases, so there you have it. Do the goal pace stuff indoors. For the slower running … well, the Northeast winters can still suck, so it is as simple as bundling up, avoiding iffy traffic areas, watching your footing, and dealing with the elements. Not much more to say on that front.

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

I'm running the Boston Marathon this year. Ran it in 2013 and had a bad race, so need advice on how to change that. In 2013, my goal was to run 3:30. I started at 8:00-8:10/mile pace and cramped up after the first 6 miles of downhill. Did I start too fast? Not enough downhill running in training (probably)?

My last marathon was Newport in May 2014 and I ran 3:27. Was "in shape/on pace" for 3:20ish at 20 miles, then as many marathons go, faded over the last 10K.

I would *like* to run 3:20 or under at Boston 2015, but am not feeling confident on that course because of the hills. Any advice on pacing?

Boston does require course-specific training. Simply going out slower might not help if you're not prepared for that much downhill at the start followed by more hills later. The structural stress from the downhills might be your undoing even at an apparently easier starting pace.

In order to best prepare for Boston, you should perform 1-2 marathon pace-targeted workouts per week which involve running up and down on 3% to 5% grade hills which are roughly one half mile of uphill and one half mile to 2 miles of downhill. Ideally, this would be done on days involving segment running in 5-minute to 15-minute efforts at or near Goal Race Pace. If no such hills are available, the next best thing is to use a treadmill to create the gradients. Per the previous post, prop the rear of the treadmill up on stacks of books or barbell plates to create a downslope and adjust the gradient that much extra in the positive direction when doing the uphill portions. Each uphill should last for 3 to 5 minutes. Downhills should ideally not be steeper than -3% grade (more likely -1% to -1.5% at first) and can be run for up to 15 minutes at a time.

Recovery takes longer following workouts involving significant downhill running, owing to eccentric loading (the braking effect), so begin with only one up-and-down workout per week for 3 weeks and gradually move to 2 per week if preparing for a course like Boston. Do only level-surface running in the last week prior to the race itself.

The cramping issues might be staved off with the right fluids (i.e., water / electrolyte balance) and pre-race diet. There are a lot of things that potentially contribute to that, but if it happened in the first 6 miles, it's probably no coincidence - chances are it stems from not being prepared for the eccentric stress on Boston's downhill start.

Hi,

What do you think of a workout such as

10*400m @ vVO²Max with recovery = 1/2 to 3/4 of the duration of effort (for example 45s or 1m if the 400m duration is 1'30".

during a marathon training ?

Thank you

Do you believe in "depletion runs"? That is, deliberately run long runs/workouts with depleted glycogen stores.

It's hilarious that this forum has devolved into such a pathetic mess that the founder feels the need to start a specific thread to get people to talk about running.

depleted wrote:

Do you believe in "depletion runs"? That is, deliberately run long runs/workouts with depleted glycogen stores.

I 2nd this question. Lately, this seems to become more popular among world class runners to run their long run without any carbs.

MP cruise intervals. Yes or no?

My understanding is that when doing true tempo cruise intervals you are playing with lactate buffering and clearing. This concept doesn't really hold for MP paced intervals, you are not that close to red-lining.

Yet I have seen workouts like 3x5k @ MP w/ 2-3 mins of easy jog. Building up to ~4x6k or similar. I think of these as good workouts just because of the sheer amount of MP running, but the science behind it being highly disputable. From the posts above, it looks like you recommend much more rest than 2-3mins.

JK is there anything outside of conventional recovery wisdom that you incorporate into your runners' program to help ensure adequate compensation from the workload.

And if I can be so greedy to ask a second question; how do you know that a runner is recovered enough to bang out his or her next workout.

Best Regards

Matt

If you are going to run one marathon a year, is it better to run it in the spring or fall?

For arguments sake, you live in a place that has both enough snow and enough heat to hamper both winter and summer training.

As long as the footing is okay, is it ever too cold for long marathon pace runs? 12+ miles w/ warm up-cooldown.